How Did You Get Started With Raw Feeders? (1:16)

• How Mariah Got Started with Raw Feeders
• How Dr. Billinghurst Got Interested in Raw Food
• How Dr. Billinghurst Started Her Business

How Do I Balance A Raw Diet? (6:41)

• Billinghurst Is the Father of Species-Appropriate Feeding
• The Top Three Questions From The Audience
• How To Balance a Raw Diet with Whole Foods
• Omega Threes and Omega-3s

The Fear Of Meaty Bones (11:19)

• Fear Of Choking and Breaking Teeth
• How Many Dogs Have Choked on Bones
• One of the Worst Cases of Intestinal Perforation
• The Myth That Bones Are Dangerous
• How Harry Got Started in The Raw Meat Business
• The Benefits of Raw Meat

The Importance Of Bones In The Diet (19:54)

• The Dangers of Eating Bare Bones
• Natasha Chilton on High-Zinc Foods

Foods That Are High In Zinc (22:47)

• Oysters Are a Good Source of Zinc
• The Risks of Supplementing With Beef
• Supplements Are Being Overused Now, And People Are Scared of Overdosing
• The Importance of Minimum Supplementation
• Going Back to A Kibble Mentality
• Billinghurst’s Thoughts on Feeding Raw

Why Do People Come To You About Supplements For Pets? (30:15)

• The Reason Why People Come to You for Supplements
• Why Dogs Like to Eat Poop
• What a Dog Would Go-To Eat
• Prebiotics, Fermented Food, and Poor Substitutes
• Raw Meaty Bones, Organ Meats, And Vegetables

How Do You Find A Holistic Vet? (37:07)

• Dealing With Mariah, A Customer From Their Vet's Office
• Finding A Holistic Vet

Food Processing Vs. Allergies (38:14)

• How Food Is Processed vs. the Food Itself
• Comparing Raw vs Cooked Food

How To Source Meat? (40:52)

• How The Way Animals Are Fed Changes Things
• How Does Natascha Deal with Sourcing
• Easy Ways to Get Locally Sourced Meats
• Solutions To Farmers' Market Problems
• The Importance of Knowing the Source of Supplements
• The Dangers of Buying Accessories on Amazon

What Is Homeostasis In Dogs? (47:03)

• Homeostasis Is the Secret to Balance
• The Importance of Homeostasis for Dogs
• There Is No One Specific Way to Feed
• The 30th Anniversary of Dr. Billinghurst's Book
• Mariah Is Trying to Educate People
• Gus Has Help with His Dog's Bad Breath

Nutrition, Diagnosis, And Treatment (54:53)

• Nutrition And the Proper Foundation Are Key
• Diagnosis Is Essential for Treating Trichomonas

How Do You Get Your Dog To Eat Meaty Bones? (57:04)

• DIY Vs. Premade Meaty Bones for Pets
• How To Get a Cat to Be Insured
• How To Get Cats Used to Chunks
• Tips For Cats to Eat Meaty Bones

Daily Balanced Meals Vs. Balancing Over Time (1:00:57)

• Introducing Cats to Raw Meat
• Daily Balanced Meals Vs Balancing Over Time
• Biological Example of a Mountaintop Tree
• The Science of Modern Nutrition

Puppies And Bone Density (1:07:02)

• Importance Of Getting Minerals in Puppies
• Thoughts On Daily Balanced Meals for Balance
• What Mariah Is Doing for Those Who Need Comfort
• Mariah's First Stop Is on Her Website

Rob Ryan  00:01

Well, hello, everybody. It's good to be with you again. Thanks for joining us live. We are very excited today, Dr. Billinghurst. I am happy to have Mariah from Paws of Prey. We will talk a lot about getting people educated in the whole raw space supplementation. People are preparing their meals; do it yourself. DIY dog food prep And Mariah is a real champion. We're excited. So, let's get right to the good stuff. First, let me bring on my partner, Dr. Ian Billinghurst.

Dr. Ian Billinghurst  00:47

Good morning, Rob, and good morning, everybody. It's lovely to be up this early in the morning. Let me tell you.

Rob Ryan  00:53

Yes.

Dr. Ian Billinghurst  00:54

I've had the coffee already.

Rob Ryan  00:56

Yes. Good morning. Well, that's that. This is just my afternoon cup. So yes, good. Good morning to you. Good afternoon. Good evening, wherever you are in the world. And hey, let's get right to it. I already alluded to our guests. Let's bring her on. Hey, Mariah and Tangy are in the back.

How Did You Get Started With Raw Feeders? (1:16)

Mariah  01:16

Yes, thank you back there.

Dr. Ian Billinghurst  01:18

Good morning. Mariah and Tangy, I had some activity this morning. Yeah, he's

Mariah  01:23

Significantly, he's very excited.

Rob Ryan  01:25

He's going to be showing up. Well, welcome to our live cast. Let's get into this for folks tuning in who have yet to learn you. Or what it is you do. Let's give a quick overview of what the paws of prey are.

Mariah  01:49

Okay. So, Paws of Prey started as just a YouTube channel; I was giving free content. It was like raw feeding on YouTube. It's big on Instagram and things like that. But when it comes to YouTube, some people did sites like meal preps and stuff, but there needed to be more in-depth information. I decided to make it known through videos since people now like video formats much better than reading substantial blog posts. A lot of people do that. But a lot of people like video formats. I'll try that out. And I went from there. Pictures are something that I enjoy more than video. And I did want Instagram's platform more, but I knew that that video needed to be there. So that's why I started YouTube.

Rob Ryan  02:49

That's great. Yeah.

Dr. Ian Billinghurst  02:52

The immediate question was about raw feeders. Mariah, how did you get started? Everybody wants to know that. Why is it raw for you? How did you get started with React? Tell us about that.

Mariah  03:05

So, in 2016, my ferret passed away at four years old. And at the time, I was feeding him like the marshal, like poor-quality ferret food at the pet store. And I thought other than his health and genetics, which could have been better. I knew his diet was probably to blame, but I didn't examine the ingredients and what ferrets needed. And I learned that they were obligate carnivores. So, a lot of the stuff there was inappropriate for him. So I decided that the future pets that I got would eat species with appropriate diets, whatever that would be. And I would learn from there. At the time, I was also working at a doggy daycare and boarding facility. And a holistic veterinarian would bring her dog in with raw food. And that was amazing and so interesting. And I just learned from there. And I was just intrigued. So yeah.

Dr. Ian Billinghurst  04:04

Did you have any formal training in nutrition at all?

Mariah  04:08

No. I was always interested in it. Animals have always been a passion of mine, and I am keeping them healthy. It was always something that interested me, of course. So, I knew nutrition was a big part of that. So, I got into that right away.

Dr. Ian Billinghurst  04:28

That's fabulous. Because I've always said you don't need nutrition training to feed your animals. So congratulations. Well done. Thank you.

Rob Ryan  04:39

Did you find it daunting when you started?

Mariah  04:42

It was more exciting. I knew it was going to be a lot. But I was just excited to start. I loved that I could make everything and build it myself, find a lot of different fresh foods, add them all together, and make a well-balanced meal. That way, it was exciting.

Dr. Ian Billinghurst  05:01

that's fantastic.

Rob Ryan  05:04

Yeah. When I got my first dog, I famously told people and met this guy. It shows me the other way. That's funny—that guy. Yeah, but when I got my first dog, and he had me hacking up turkeys and all this stuff, I bought a cleaver because I didn't own one until I met Dr. Billinghurst. Well, cool. So. So you went and worked with this daycare? And then how did your business launch have a positive pre-launch from there? Well,

Mariah  05:51

I started working at a veterinary hospital a little later and worked there for a few years. And I got more passionate about raw food once I got Matsu. I went from Ferret; I just had ferrets and got Matsu. And, of course,  the raw feeding world is mainly dogs. So, I dove in even more. And I had many more tools and places to learn about raw feeding for dogs. It became more prominent for me at the time. I had like a little Instagram for Matsu, which I still have. But I mean, I thought through that. But I thought having a platform just for raw feeding would be better, and it went off from there. Well, that's great. Yeah, that's

How Do I Balance A Raw Diet? (6:41)

Rob Ryan  06:41

Great. I loved how you said raw and then species-appropriate. Was that the word used? Yeah. So, for anybody watching, the father of species-appropriate, biological feeding is also Dr. Billinghurst. Here on this call, it's his 30th. Mariah. It's the 30th anniversary of the first book, The Seminal Book, Give your dog a bone. 30th anniversary this year.

Mariah  07:17

Yes, I saw that. It was released the year I was born, a few months before I was born. Yeah.

Dr. Ian Billinghurst  07:27

Are you making me feel young? Rob, when you said the father of raw food, I thought you told me Darwin was on the show.

Mariah  07:39

Yeah. 

Dr. Ian Billinghurst  07:42

I couldn't say.

Rob Ryan  07:44

That's great. Well, what I was thinking about is moving into the type of questions you get; by the way, anybody who's on, especially if you're subscribed to you a positive prayer or you're a fan of Moraz, Feel free to ask us any questions you have about your feeding supplementation. I'll help where I can; Dr. Billinghurst certainly can chime in. Please ask if you're on Facebook, or just put the question in the comments field, and it will show up for us. And we'll put it on the screen and get it answered. So

Mariah  08:25

is it streaming directly through YouTube right now? It is okay. Okay, I'm just ensuring I was linking them to the right thing.

Rob Ryan  08:33

Yeah, yeah. Let's talk about the top three questions that come to mind and pray for them to come to you.

Mariah  08:44

That's hard; I get a lot. One of the big ones that I get is that balancing is a big thing right now, and I talked about it a lot because veterinarians are constantly hounding owners. Like, don't feed raw; it needs to be balanced. And like,  ingredients that people use, some feed like chicken and broccoli, and that's it. So I want to tell people that you can't just feed these two ingredients because it's Whole Foods; it will only provide some. So people are fearful that if they're feeding something like a homemade diet, they won't offer everything they need. So their most significant question is, How do I balance a raw diet? And that's a loaded question, but you can do it with whole foods in many ways. Usually, when you create a pre-model diet of raw meat, bone, muscle, meat, liver, and at least one other secreting organ, only five or six nutrients will be low. These are things like omega 3, which are EPA and DHA, iodine, vitamin D, vitamin E, and manganese; sometimes iron can be low for cats in puppies and kittens. I'd like to know if I need to remember one. Those are the main ones. Zinc is sometimes ordinary. So, things that can fill those nutrient gaps

I have information on my free cheat sheet on my website. But for omega-3s, oily fish like mackerel, sardines, and salmon can fill those vitamin D needs. Salmon and mackerel can also provide vitamin D. Manganese blue muscles are good. Blue and green left muscles are okay, but you'd have to feed more of them. Tripe is good for that. And then provide them with an E. It's complicated with vitamin D. Whole prey will have some, but not everyone can feed whole prey animals. So, usually, people use natural vitamin E oil to fill that gap or seeds. But that's only appropriate for dogs. And the list goes on. I don't want to go and keep going on with that. But yeah, yeah, but balancing it sounds scary. But you can do it.

The Fear Of Meaty Bones (11:19)

Dr. Ian Billinghurst  11:19

You find many people try to do the raw diet without bones.

Mariah  11:23

Without bones. Yeah, many people are scared of meaty bones and, like their pet choking, fear chicken bones. That's still a thing. Even though it's cooked bones, that's the issue, not raw. But usually, there are options, like ground-up bone or bone meal, as long as it's a good, well-sourced one. So there are options.

Rob Ryan  11:49

Great. Yeah, what are they afraid of the most? Is it like their dogs are breaking their teeth or something?

Mariah  11:59

Yeah, I, well, with bones. They're afraid of choking. It's the most interesting. Yeah. Like they just said, Hey, I can't, like it's hard for people to think that. Our pets chewing and consuming bones is good for them. Yeah, I get it. But yeah, they're just afraid of that. And also, a big thing is intestinal, puncturing stuff like that.

Rob Ryan  12:27

These are all imagined.

Mariah  12:29

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, a lot. I mean, dogs can. There's a dog that is, like, called a GOPer. And they don't even chew; they try to swallow everything. And they'll say that could be a problem. But usually, I don't hear much about choking, and I especially like in texts, intestinal-like issues unless it's like cooked bones.

Rob Ryan  12:51

Well, Ian, how many through all of your years and all of your lecturing and all of the holistic vets have you had either choking from bones or intestinal punctures?

Dr. Ian Billinghurst  13:05

Very few rock, very few. And I've been advocating raw food all my life, for a long time. For most of my career, I started very early, not knowing how to tell people what to feed because I'd always be federal. And then, at the university, we were taught to feed kibble. As a newly graduated vet, I didn't know what to do. But in any case, in my own experience, I can think of literally one point where I had to operate because of intestinal perforation. And this was my dentist, by the way.

Mariah  13:50

Do you know why? What was his situation?

Dr. Ian Billinghurst  13:53

I really cannot recall; it was too long ago. It was a horrendous operation. It was right at the ileocecal, where the last part of the small intestine joins under the seat of the large bowel. It was perforated, and all I could do was do a repair job and then send it off to a specialist, which I rarely ever did. But this one was just way too bad. But in my practice, we had a massive can of muscle powder. Would you believe it? It was a muscle that was used for chickens. Still, it was pure amoxil, and in those situations, I would throw almost a handful of amoxil powder in to cover the possibility of peritonitis. We never had a problem that, for example, I would use if we had a dog with a bowel blockage, and a common one back then was corncobs.

Mariah  14:52

But the interest? Oh yeah, actually

Dr. Ian Billinghurst  14:55

bad. It's a bad one, but the dog corncobs documents. I can remember that one. And the other one was a dog with a T-bone stuck in her chest. Her name was Annie. And it was right in the middle of the chest. So we had to get that out. And the esophagus at that point was quite fragile and going rotten. We've been there for a day or two. We managed to save as well. But it is an absolute myth. And I know that vets will say, Oh, I have to operate two or three times a week to get bones out of stuck dogs or have preparations. Now. They're telling porkies, but they sincerely believe that bones are dangerous. And the only way to convince people not to feed bones is because they have been taught how difficult bones are. That's because a pet food company representative didn't see him when they owned. They sincerely believe that telling these stories will be enough to convince people not to feed what they see as exceedingly dangerous things. And that's sad. But it's rapidly out there. I've seen it. So often, people will come and say what my vet said or have had an email that my vet said; this is what goes on. And I know it's just absolutely not true from my own experience. Because I've been recommended, of course, every animal I've had since the early 1980s has been federal from the word go. And I remember one of my clients, who was a rough character. He was mildly familiar with the inside of some prisons, which was, at times, a love of life. And he had hunting dogs, and where we lived at the time, there was a state forest full of feral pigs. And he was on the dark government purse. But anyway, they would go out, and they would hunt pigs. Now, his dogs would get in the back of the track, where they would jump off. And they had dogs that could be more pleasant. For some people, it's a fact of life from then on. Dogs were chasers, finders, and dogs that would hold the pigs and all that sort of thing. Anyway, he would tell me that early on, before he met me, his dogs could only go a couple of hours before they were exhausted. So then I taught him about chicken carcasses and wings and the benefits of raw and all that sort of thing. He started a business, and I couldn't. He didn't tell the government about this either. Well, that's another story. I don't think he's around anymore. So, to this tale, out of school. So he started a business selling chicken bits; he would go down to EOMS, a chicken processing factory. And he would bring all the chicken bits back. And he would sell them to his neighbors, and so on. And they were getting the benefits of raw as well. Because what he discovered was that when his dog started to eat raw, they could go all day without hopping on the back of the truck. And he was ecstatic, and he said Harry was his name. What was his area? I don't know what they might be, and I don't know whether you're watching this, but anyway, he was one of my early teachers in Raw because he showed me just how brilliant rural was. But to your point, he made none of his dogs eat, and they ate whole chickens. And there were chicken bones that said there'd be drumsticks in there, which was not quite right. And all sorts of little fibula bones can be tested for those things. Yeah. I never had a problem. And so, people say, Oh, it's all my dogs savage. Well, let me say that hunted peaks. They lived in the backyard with his kids, who were the most his children. I am curious to know whether kids are a species. Correct. Anyway, I lived in the backyard with his kids and his children; they were the softest, gentlest human animals you could ever have met. And they were quiet with each other as well as other dogs. They were just lovely big dogs, but introduce them to a pig. It was a different story. But to the point we're making, I've never seen or rarely seen it. It's so rare. And I've recommended raw meaty bones to 1000s and 1000s of people over the years and been in contact with people who feed that way both in and on the net, etc.

The Importance Of Bones In The Diet (19:54)

Rob Ryan  19:54

In my 23 years of feeding raw, I mean, with Labradors. Those who aren't precisely 251 times. Yeah. Yeah. I had my dog buddy, a black lab, and he had a stump and an intestinal operation because I took him hiking in Lake Tahoe. And he got a hold of a femur bone of another animal that had probably been sitting there for a long time. And it was just some other animal that broke it off. And he got the unlucky draw, you know. And so it wasn't from bone that he ate. And then I had another dog named Owen, a white lab. And he had broken and busted his number three on both sides. Molar not from a bone but from a friend's Nyla bone. It's one of those artificial fakes made of nylon or plastic. And he went to fat. What's that? Yeah. Oh, yeah. So, the main thing about bones is that no cooked bones are a good thing. They Splinter the change of molecular structure. But one of the best things about bones and ground bones is excellent; it's okay. It gets the nutrients in, but you're depriving your dog of species-appropriate love and joy of life,  these happiness chemicals that come from? Chewing feelings. Endorphins, serotonin, dopamine, and oxytocin. This is part of the joy of being a dog. And, we have our dogs in condominiums and high rises, and they're living these sterile lives and a lot of the things that they're,  walks aren't the only thing they like to do, they want to,  enjoy their food. So, that's something to think about and worth examining our fears. And maybe reexamining our fears, whether justified or not. Let's get a quick question. I am just popping in. Thank you so much, Natasha Chilton. And she says, Are there any foods high in zinc, or is the supplement best?

Foods That Are High In Zinc (22:47)

Mariah  22:47

Okay, so yes, there are foods that are high in zinc. Red meats, in particular, are higher in zinc. Sometimes, they can meet the zinc requirements, but sometimes, they need to. So, oysters are an excellent source of zinc. They're very concentrated in it. So that's always what I recommend if you can find canned oysters or raw ones that you could cook, as long as the canned ones aren't added sodium or flavorings. But supplements are still okay; I could only open a can of worms with the accessories because there are so many different forms of zinc. And there's also, like, all these forms are absorbed by the body differently. And certain ones are not as bioavailable and can harm the cause. Yeah, certain ones can cause some GI upset and stuff. So, it's hard to supplement minerals, especially zinc, because there are also nutrient relationships. Zinc has different relationships with copper and iron and stuff like that. So, it gets all into it when it comes to supplements.

Dr. Ian Billinghurst  24:05

Yeah, if you're using beef, use the toughest cuts. You can get the highest zinc. Yeah,

Mariah  24:13

yeah, yes.

Rob Ryan  24:15

Oh, that. I wouldn't say I like high zinc. Content beef. I like fillets—soft, tender.

Dr. Ian Billinghurst  24:24

Rob, you have to get yourself a slow cooker.

Rob Ryan  24:28

I know. I bought a pressure cooker or another pressure cooker. Yes. Or I can

Dr. Ian Billinghurst  24:36

go out and come home to a beautiful meal that is already cooked.

Rob Ryan  24:41

Yeah. All right. Beautiful thing. What do you think about Mariah? What do you think about people? When people endeavor to supplement, do they it's almost like is there a pendulum swing? Like, do they mess it up? Do they go overboard? Do they try to? What are some of the things you see with people supplementing? You're playing with a lot of I'm not. I'm not going as far as to say you're playing God with nature, but it is you you're playing with balance. So what dangers Do you see with that, if any,

Mariah  25:31

I always tell people to try using species-appropriate whole foods to balance, but not everyone can do that. So, the supplements helped, and I did an email on this. Those supplements are being overused now. And people so far like that I talked to they're pretty good at, like, making sure they're feeding the right amount. They're terrified of overdosing. So usually, people are good, but sometimes I catch if they share a recipe they created. I see people sometimes feeding too much of something, and they do not realize it, specifically kelp powder. There's the brand now. Now foods, they have kelp powder, the tiniest scoop of kelp powder with a ton of iodine. And iodine can cause thyroid issues; too much or too little of it. So I get people to understand the amounts they need to feed for kelp specifically and supplements are such high doses. And a lot of the time, people use human supplements because many pet ones aren't great. Yeah, but yeah, it's it's tough.

Rob Ryan  26:57

to bring it up is super important. I find many people in their human supplementation, and I'm a huge. I'm super pro supplementation, but yes, the proper and minimum supplementation. There are people who famously they'll pop 50. Look, I live in Boulder, Colorado, and people are, well, many people in this town are popping 50 pills a day. Interestingly, you can take anything to the extreme. Yes, and a lot of them are popping. There's all these incipients in there, magnesium steroid and rice flour and all this other stuff. And so they're consuming all that every single day. And they're also on the shelves forever. So they're less bioavailable and potent than buying cheap versions in your local pharmacy. And those sit on shelves in warehouses permanently exposed to heat that are not climate-controlled for over two or three years. And I don't find it ironic that somebody's going through the trouble of feeding raw. Some people feed raw, and then they're coming almost back to a kibble mentality because kibble has so many supplements in it. Yes. Such crap. Yeah, it needs to be supplemented to be balanced.

Mariah  28:31

Isn't that interesting? Yeah. I'm always torn with that. Because, Okay, so for instance, Dr. Billinghurst, I'm sure you didn't supplement your dogs in the 80s with many different supplements. You just gave them raw food, and they were fine. Is that right? Right. So, nowadays, I'm sure many people who have fed back in the day are like, Why are you adding so many supplements? You're overcomplicating it; that's getting ridiculous, which I understand. But at the same time, veterinarians and pet food companies are pushing people more towards ensuring things are complete and balanced to the nutrient requirements because if they do, their beds will be okay with them. So, on one side, most minor pets, like cats and dogs, have been seen to have adverse reactions or issues when they're not fed a nutrient and a sufficient amount. But at the same time, their bodies are resilient, and they can function without zinc for a certain amount of time because we've seen it back when people were feeding their dogs just scraps and raw parts and things like that. So it's hard to tell people you must balance to the perfect number versus just feeding your pet Whole Foods and species-appropriate foods.

Rob Ryan  30:10

You see the smoke coming out of his ears?

Why Do People Come To You About Supplements For Pets? (30:15)

Dr. Ian Billinghurst  30:15

The people come to you not because there is a dog or cat when the dog, I guess, has a distinct deficiency. Or do they come to you because they are just worried that the diet may not be balanced but why do they come and ask you about supplements?

Mariah  30:36

Yeah, they're worried. And mainly because a lot of my content is about balancing because of the issue, with people just thinking they can feed two ingredients and think that's okay, like, and that's, being, behind them making them feel bad because it's not balanced like commercial food is. So that's the main thing. I spoke with Raw Pets Rule; I'm Erin from Raw Pets Rule. There's a lot about this. And she does a lot of diet formulations. And she's every person and talked to pets; owners who fed their pets in the 80s are like, my past was just fine without supplements. And a lot of people that she's formulated for, for instance, they've maybe fed a diet with a little too much of something or, like, are fed a diet of like, one specific, one specific recipe with supplements in it, and they started having issues. So it's just hard. It takes a lot of work to say what to do and what not to do. It's constantly changing.

Dr. Ian Billinghurst  31:49

Suppose people have to understand that these 80 1010s and all prey models. Why are they deficient in something may well, why why? Why might they be? As you mentioned, one needs more variety to understand the pyramid. So, raw, meaty bones are at the bottom of that pyramid. Up the pyramid, the next one is organ meats. The next one is crushed vegetables. And then, on top of that, is what I call poo substitutes. So peak, the poo substitutes contain fermented things. But other things also, because we know that dogs like to lick each other's butts and pass Yes. I want to eat poo. It's got a scientific name. It's called cop property. So they're called preferred animals. And let's call it this; think about poo for a minute, an excellent topic. Something we don't eat. So, dogs are different from us. The Eskimos in the woods, in their native condition, have reindeer poo as a source of fiber. But let's put that one aside. What's in food that a dog would go to eat? Well, I observed this very often in my career with a lot of German Shepherds, mainly large dogs, and being fed dry for it, particularly as youngsters, because they're honest, one of them was to grow bit size, so they didn't develop orthopedic conditions. They were fed this terrible dry food, and the dogs would turn around, and as these friendly, warm, big dogs of poo dropped out the other end, they would turn around and consume their food. Why? This was a question, and I realized that the food coming from the back end was more nutritious than the food in the front. I see you gulping and wanting to puke, and I can understand that. But you see, what is it about poo? Well, poo is living bodies living organic bodies of bacteria. So they live as creatures. So they provide whole food, and they are full of incense, or they are prebiotic. If they're from herbivores, they're fantastic. Well, they are a prebiotic. If they're from herbivores, they're also appropriate probiotics. So that's two things. They're full of high-class protein. They're full of essential fatty acids, B vitamins, and vitamin K. So if you feed bones and poo, Wow, what a combination—complete diet. And nobody wants to provide poo because if a dog's eating poop, very unpleasant when you get a kiss for poop, eating dog food, just not a meal. So due to substitutes, poor substitutes are prebiotics, fermented food, dogs, dig-up bones, and all that sort of thing. They require that the gut contents of a rumen, for example, fermented soy, or fermented food.

Yeah, we're over here somewhere. Yeah. Yeah, this is, and when Rob first told me about this, I was excited. Wow, that is what we need to add to modern dog food, particularly the ones that are being sterilized in some way to kill all the microbes. So that was super important. This has input, high-quality protein so that we can throw in some eggs, cottage cheese, or healthy lean meat. What else are essential fatty acids? Well, this is where you throw in your fish oils. So, all these poor substitutes make up for all those deficiencies people worry about. Now, a dog could get their poor replacement in my day. And if you live on a farm, they will get their perception shot. Or if you live in an area with possums on your roof, you will get possum poo on the veranda. We live in an apartment, and you must ensure you put poor substitutes at the top of your food chain. So it's raw, meaty bones at the bottom. And itself is almost a complete meal. Let me tell you, it's not just a calcium substitute. And then the vegetables, all those wonderful polythene has all the sorry, the organ meats, in a sense the organ meats, particularly liver, again to supply a lot of you minerals, not calcium, but the bones provide that. And then, of course, on top of that, you've got, and they do other things as well. You should be at least using liver, kidney, and heart, which you should be at probably twice as much kidney, sorry, liver as kidney and soul on top of the vegetables, all the polyphenols. And then your poor substitute. So that's it. It's a simple 1234-tier program, raw meaty, bones, organ meats, vegetables, and poor substitutes. Yeah, there you have it: a complete and balanced diet. And that's what they should be looking at. So it's lovely that you're making these charts to help them understand them.

How Do You Find A Holistic Vet? (37:07)

Rob Ryan  37:07

It also occurs to me that what you're dealing with, Mariah, is a customer coming from their vet's office. And, they're, and we talk about this all the time, Ian and I talked about how there needs to be a real reeducation and reduction for many vets and introductions. So, who do you have? This might be a good area for you to invest some energy; maybe you have already, which is, how do you find a vet that's far away? Who can do consults with you and help you? It's like reading the tea leaves and looking at test results. So you can go to your traditional vet, have test results, have a holistic vet and give you some advice on it? It can be expensive. That is for sure. But are you having the right person in your ear and the wrong person in your ear? It isn't enjoyable. And it's pretty; it makes things difficult.

Food Processing Vs. Allergies (38:14)

Mariah  38:14

It does. Yeah, yeah. And that's, that's a good idea. A lot of things, like something that I always run into, at least working at a veterinary hospital, I always hear that say, I'm not going to give your pet advice if I don't see them face to face. That could be an issue, but there are veterinarians out there who would do that service.

Rob Ryan  38:37

Oh, there are great veterinarians; we can talk offline about them. Okay. Let's, let's take a quick question. Let's see here. Natasha Chilton. Does the way food is processed be called allergies, may be causing allergies? Or could a dog be allergic to how that food is processed versus the food itself? This is the first time I've heard this question. So, good question.

Mariah  39:05

I need to understand what you mean by process, but if you tell raw vs. cooked. I have been trying to look more into this. I have heard people saying, " Oh, my dog seems more issue when they eat cooked chicken versus raw, " which I don't know; I don't have any data. But just from what people have said, grass-fed and finished beef versus conventionally raised beef. People see another thing where their pet could react better to commercially raised beef versus grass-fed and finished beef, so there's a little difference. Yeah.

Dr. Ian Billinghurst  39:53

Yeah. With allergies and species, like beef or chicken or pork or whatever. It is often a cooked form that is causing the problem, but it is also associated with commercial food full of carbohydrates. Because when you cook those things together, you produce a new substance, a chemical between the protein and the carbohydrate. And this can be problematic. And so it's just another. It's another reason not to feed cooked foods to feed a species-appropriate food. Dogs are not designed to eat food cooked together with carbohydrates. That's the truth as well. We're not talking about dogs. They're not humans.

Rob Ryan  40:40

Yeah, and we have a follow-up to her question. She says what chemicals may be on them growing: glyphosate, weed killers, etc., and how the animals are fed to Yes.

How To Source Meat? (40:52)

Mariah  40:52

Yeah. So yeah, how the animals are fed changes things. Yeah.

Dr. Ian Billinghurst  40:59

Another reason to feed organic is if you're able, and your dog has a problem, if your dog has a problem, the longer you get away. Well, get away with a lot of people feeding conventionally. That is to say, just regular agriculture, which we're trying to reach, our animals away endo soil away from traditional agriculture goes back to regenerative, but a lot of people can feed their animals, their dogs, cats with food that's been conventionally raised with normal today's agriculture. And they do so much better, of course. There's no question.

Rob Ryan  41:38

Yeah, I mean, Natasha, how do you summarize the question? How do you deal with the sourcing? Because on Instagram, I'll see chicken feet and all these different plates, and they're coming from other markets. And,  right, it can leach; talk to us about how you talk about sourcing.

Mariah  42:02

Yeah, so sourcing, I also make that easy for people. So, go to your local farmers market, talk with the farmers in your area, and get the best meat. But of course, people can only sometimes do that. So I also say go to your grocery store, your local butcher, and the Asian markets that you have in your area. Even things like asking on Facebook or Craigslist if anyone is selling, giving away, or doing a freezer clean out, or if people have meat in their freezer that they just used and they're not going to use, just easy ways people can get meat because I know it can be hard sometimes. But of course, try to get locally sourced meats if you can. And that's what I do. When I lived in Virginia, I knew you wanted to jump everywhere. When I lived in Virginia, I had a great farmer that I pretty much got everything, and I was lucky enough to get a lot of things for free, which you may be me,  may or may not get some people, some farmers will charge you, and it'll be a little more expensive because they're grass-fed and finished. Usually, your pasture is raised, but you have to go and ask, and I love doing it that way.

Rob Ryan  43:27

That's great. So, Yeah, the thing I saw an agreement with you, I mean, more than ever, but now more than ever, knowing your farmers market. Shaking a farmer's hand, if you aren't on a budget, you can see you could feed the highest quality grass-fed meat by getting creative calling up. Farmers in the area. Yep. Get a little freezer if you can, and ask for scraps and trim. I get it. There are all kinds of ways you could be creative. You could feed a couple of days a week, cheaper cuts, things like tongue and organ meat. But you'll always find a farmer or rancher, a meat producer that's got a problem selling something. If you want to solve that problem, you can make it work. I neglected to mention one quick note: you brought up new supplements. I'm not in the business of talking wrong about companies. But now I believe Nestle owns it. And it's it's pretty. Knowing the source is essential in this particular topic. Knowing I'm one of those people, I'll email the company and say, what's the source? And it usually is from my supplementation. What is the start of the "I just did this recently with glycine? Where are you getting this from? Right. And sometimes, the things you hear most of the time, you don't get a response. So I don't do business with that company. Uh, give them a week. And if they don't respond, that's fine. But a lot of times, you'll find out if the sources, chicken feathers,  the things they can extract these days and isolate,  supplements from, it's pretty remarkable. It's also pretty gross. And so know what you're feeding, supplements are, as far as I'm concerned, they should be considered food, they're going in the same place that your food is going. And it's not the same value, but it's going in the same place. And I think it's so important, you could probably do a whole week series on supplements and where they come from,

Mariah  46:05

yeah, and that's a whole other thing. Once you switch over to a supplement you have to feed, you have to figure out which brand to use, who to trust, and where they source. And if they do third-party testing and all that kind of stuff.

Rob Ryan  46:19

And I would never just be sorry and have to be on this quick soapbox. I would never buy supplements on Amazon. Unless I got a link from the company that I trusted and said, Where's your Amazon store? Please give us your link. And then I knew it was coming directly from them. Because there are so many counterfeits. And pretty labels you put, you put cute packaging on this inferior grade. And they're cut with all kinds of junk. Hey, folks, we have to know what we're, what we're feeding our dogs. And cats. Yeah. All right. So

What Is Homeostasis In Dogs? (47:03)

Dr. Ian Billinghurst  47:03

Let's bring up a word here that has yet to be mentioned: what is homeostasis? And the whole idea here is that our dogs and this go back to that story that Mariah was telling. You're saying, Mariah, that you talked to people who had dogs 2030 years ago and talked about the simplicity of their supplementation, and they were okay; there is one problem: the food may have been more nutrient-dense. That's number one. That's true. That's true. Nutrient density must be proper. It comes from more organic foods raised in sustainable agriculture. But you even said that the body can take modern foods that are less nutrient-dense and extract what it needs, as long as it's actual food. Evolution has designed the body to work with food, not mainly with many supplements or other things. But with real food, that was one of the things I liked about what Rob was producing. It was real food that had just been formatted and freeze-dried, and so on. So, the body can work with real food, but as Rob said, many inorganic supplements are made from cheap stuff. And the other thing I noticed, too. Over the years, many people with young pups often felt more accessories, and they felt the actual food was crazy. And they were wondering why they were getting these terrible results. So please hit foods with puppies; the pups died on raw, meaty bones. But I'll get back to this word: homeostasis. This is the secret to balance, as long as you're in roughly the ballpark of that pyramid that I showed you with raw, meaty bones on the bottom. Organ meats, vegetables, and then substitutes on top—you can bet your bottom dollar that your dog will be wonderful. So that's the secret of bounce. If you're uncomfortable with that, Mariah has provided you with some balance sheets, and that's great, too. But understanding is crucial because even understanding the balance sheets, if you know that rough idea of the pyramid, yeah. It helps you to understand those balance sheets as well.

Mariah  49:21

Right. And the most significant thing is its variety,  so there's not one specific, yeah, there needs to be one clear way you have to feed as long as you're feeding species-appropriate food and a good variety of them. And you're considering the nutrients they provide, and then that would be the best diet.

Rob Ryan  49:46

Well, what you do is so important. I think it's so interesting that the 30th anniversary of Dr. Billinghurst's book “Give Your Dog a Bone” is out. And that's the year you were born. Right? Yes. There's something so poetically beautiful. The fact that you feel that way is there; you're helping, what you're doing, and serving a purpose, like I did this morning to talk to a fantastic veterinarian named Dr. Steve Marsden. And if you don't know about Steve, he will be on our podcast soon. And he will talk about allergies, by the way, and the gut. Fascinating guy. And most of what we talked about was how veterinarians handle many people's neuroses. And, sometimes, people think that something is serious when it's not, or they're worried about something when they don't need to be concerned about it. And that's so important. And by the way, that's normal, and we're humans; we love our dogs. I mean, I can show you tons of things that I'm neurotic about with my dog; the more I live, the more I realize that I missed the old days when I didn't know a lot of things about what my dog could get into and could hurt my dog. Or you learn you stack up now. So having somebody like you, Mariah is so important because you're always your counselor and a trusted adviser. And that's more than half the battle regarding feeding once you agree to it.

Dr. Ian Billinghurst  51:49

well, I've jotted down two things while you're talking. One is ignorance is bliss. Your first comment, and the second one, was a little knowledge can be dangerous. That's really what we see: Mariah is trying to educate people. My whole being has been to educate people. I was a high school teacher for several years. And now I'm educating on a much broader scale. And the little book I produced was to educate people. As I've said, I wrote it so I would never have to talk about this again. In that sense, I've been an absolute failure. Ever since

Rob Ryan  52:37

total failure to make a book made you go around the world and lecture about it more. Yeah. All right. So let's see. We got a couple more questions. So

Rob Ryan  52:55

Oh, well, here's Mariah if you don't mind; we got a little Gussy's Gut. We'll get this out of the way with Gussy's Gut to help with my dog's bad breath. I've, and I want to hear what you think about this moron. I've got him on Steve's raw pork. Okay. And I've also had his teeth cleaned as well. And except for this, okay. I'll take a stab first. It could be anything. It could be. It also could be the gut's health; humans and animals that breathe it often come from deep within. So it could be that. At Gus, it is essential to develop a superior product. And we let the product speak for itself. So what we know is that every single dog breed, every single dog age, every single dog,  how many times they were vaccinated, how many probes or antibiotics they took in their life, their epigenetics, what their mother ate, when she was feeding them—all these things make your dog supremely unique, super unique. And so we don't feel comfortable prescribing Gussy's Gut for anything, even something as seemingly innocuous as bad breath. If you look at the ingredients, it will give your dog some perfect breath. And I know that my dog has great breath, and dogs I know are in my close world that are on Gussy's Gut to have great breath. But give it a go. This focus on excellent nutrition sounds like you are, and I give it a little time, but I don't. Some dogs have bad; some breeds have some.

Nutrition, Diagnosis, And Treatment (54:53)

Dr. Ian Billinghurst  54:53

Well, yes, I suspect they do, and all those things contributed to it. Nutrition and things like Gussy’s Gut are the foundations. So, no matter what else is going on, if you've got that proper foundation, you've got the best chance of beating it. But the other thing, of course, is diagnosis. One of the things I found over the years, and this was an unfortunate situation, and I've noticed a few times, but I'm thinking of one case, in particular, an excellent client of mine; I noticed that the client and the dog both had terrible breath, and we diagnosed the dog. And it was a trichomonas infection. The two ways of treating that are with drugs. The other one is with something like wormwood, which is very effective, and it's an herb anyway; we treated the dog. And I'm happy their breaths improved significantly the next time I saw the dog and the human. So, there was a baton ball situation going on between the dog and me. And this is quite common because we share our microbiome with our dogs. And so, for your own health's sake, it's a good idea to supplement your dog with something like us. He's got to look for problems. This is where you need to go to a vet and get a diagnosis of if there's something particular, like a trike A-minus infection, because something like that may not clear up even with a perfect diet. It may need extra push. But mind you, I can't say that it won't clear up with an ideal diet. That's the problem: most people will feed differently. Anyway. But that's great.

Rob Ryan  56:35

And also, on that note, I would only treat once I tested. So I would figure out if you're doing something chemically to treat a potential bacterial infection or something like that. Just make sure you get

Dr. Ian Billinghurst  56:52

it's called the diagnosis rub. Yeah,

Rob Ryan  56:54

yeah. And some will go for the treatment, and they won't do the testing, so keep that in mind. How about you, Mariah? And any thoughts?

How Do You Get Your Dog To Eat Meaty Bones? (57:04)

Mariah  57:04

Yeah,  so what came to mind was, of course, the gut. But I also noticed you're feeding me pre-made raw ground; I would like to know if you provided me with the bones. But when I go back and forth, I mainly do DIY, but sometimes I'll offer my pets pre-made raw and rotate with different types of pre-made raw. If it's been like a week of the pre-made raw, I will notice Matsu is my dog; his breath smells worse. And that's because he's not chewing meaty bones or cleaning those teeth. So then I have to go in there and clean them myself or start going back to DIY, which clears it up. So, meaty bones help so much. And I was brushing your dog's teeth.

Rob Ryan  57:57

Brushing your dog's teeth doesn't have to be done with a toothbrush; agitate your dog's teeth a little bit. And we're coming out with an all-natural organic aloe vera enzyme toothpaste. Super, super clean. So look for that in the future, but having something good means wrapping some gauze around your finger. Shove it in there a little bit. It helps. Yep, it helps a lot—one more question. Let's do it here. Amber Deatherage. Thank you, Amber. Is there any way to get a cat insured? Oh, that's a great question to ask. Shouldn't raw, meaty bones be ground bones? My only option would be to do homemade meals, but I can only get her to eat a pre-made plain patty right now. Well, first of all, kudos to you. Good, Anya, as they say down under. Who wants to take this first, Mariah?

Mariah  58:54

Yeah, I can take it. So I started hanging on Ron when he was young, so it was a lot easier, and he took to it immediately. But I know that when cats are adults, you have to switch them. It can take a while for them to get used to chunks and significantly harder, meaty bones. They have to chew on, so I usually would say to start with tiny segments of meaty bones, typically small ones like quail, if you can get that, rabbit ribs, or sometimes even chicken toes and chicken wingtips; they might even be too harsh, but sometimes they're fine. Just give the tiniest segment and let them put it small enough to put in their mouth, chew a little bit, and then swallow because usually big, giant, meaty bones are intimidating for them. So, start with the tiniest pieces sometimes. You people hitting the meaty bones with a mallet helps because it breaks up the bone a little bit. And it's easier for them to chew, and they realize this is food. It'll take a while, but I know it can be done.

Rob Ryan  1:00:14

That's a great tip. I do that sometimes with a giant mallet on. While I was doing actually, I don't do that anymore. I was doing that at the beginning, when I was giving these big, what are they called? I hope they're called whole leg chicken, whole legs to my dog Gus. And he was taking forever to chew them. And I was like, let me just hit him. And I liked how it broke out the marrow in the bone better and never got bloody. I like that. Yeah. And I'm like, well, he's going to get way more of this value, I thought, then a couple. How about you, Dr. B?

Daily Balanced Meals Vs. Balancing Over Time (1:00:57)

Dr. Ian Billinghurst  1:00:57

They still get the value if they choose gold, but introduce them. That's really what you both described as perfect. I use a cleaver at the back of the play, but not so much at the sharp end. And let's break up all the bones; the skin is still intact but broken to blood oozing. Isn't that when you think about it? That's a lovely word, McCobb.

Rob Ryan  1:01:26

macabre, we have one more.

Dr. Ian Billinghurst  1:01:29

But that is a brilliant way to start small pieces. The breakdown within a more significant part is not better. Because it's a cat, I'm not quite used to it. Cats are better than dogs in this, but dogs are good. Cats are much more careful. But even so, my paranoia worries. So if it's broken up within the confines of a bit of skin, the cat could have some time chewing it up. I've had many clients tell me over the years that it took months before my cat would realize this was actual food, and they wanted to go to the trouble of eating it. But the big key here is patience. Yes.

Rob Ryan  1:02:13

Yeah. Cats eat all,  between mice and birds and lizards and stuff. Okay, c plus Dino is asking us on YouTube? What are your thoughts on daily balanced meals versus balancing over time? We'll end with this question.

Mariah  1:02:33

Okay. So, for adults, both are fine. Certain minerals, things, and vitamins can't be technical or balanced over time because they're water-soluble. But that doesn't mean your pets will drop dead because they didn't have a few vitamins in their diet that day. Pets like puppies and kittens are more critical because they need those nutrients to grow and develop. So, daily balance would be a lot better for puppies and kittens. Yeah. What would you say, Dr. B?

Dr. Ian Billinghurst  1:03:25

I'm happy for a puppy if the diet is predominantly raw, meaty bones because I like those critical issues. Our bodies are not. I'm coming closer to the opinion scientifically; even for growing puppies, balancing over time is more beneficial than trying to complete and balance every meal. The reason for this has yet to be apparent.

Mariah  1:03:59

why was I? I would love to learn more about that and am always happy to.

Dr. Ian Billinghurst  1:04:03

Yeah, but let's take a biological example. If we look at a mountaintop and we look at trees in the valley, the trees on a mountaintop are gnarly and grizzled and old and tough. The ones down the bottom are tall and straight and beautiful and soft. The ones that will last the longest are on top and have had the most challenging time in the valley. They will deteriorate and be less resilient than the ones on top. So, over evolutionary time, nothing ate a complete and balanced meal. So we are adapted and designed. And we could be prepared to last longer and better if we are not. Suppose we're growing more slowly. We've been given some more challenging times. And I suspect that's the truth of the matter. So it sounds ideal, but it is a commercial imperative to make each meal complete and balanced. And the whole science of nutrition is based on this sort of stuff. But it's all based on turning something that is not necessarily food into something that can be made. And remember, this is based on AAFCO, the American Association of Feed Control Officials. So, this whole concept is based on the principles of our early discoveries of vitamins, where everybody worries about a nutrient deficiency. And secondly, on growing an animal quickly to be slaughtered. Yeah, that's what, what, and what this whole modern nutrition science is based on. And that's not what we're doing. But we are growing them quickly, and they deteriorate quickly. So, we are trying to stop this degeneration. And part of that is needing to have each meal complete and balanced. So, is that a delicate balancing act to keep us together? But it's straightforward. It's the whole meal over time. And for a puppy, it might be three or four days, and they say it's okay. You're not going to run out of vitamin C; we're not going to run. We don't do it for ourselves. We don't need to do it for our dogs.

Mariah  1:06:33

That's the big thing. People say it's like, we don't pay this much attention to ourselves or fine. But when it comes to pets, people are just very fearful, and vets get it in their minds.

Dr. Ian Billinghurst  1:06:46

And, of course, that's that's the problem. Have we trusted robots, and they've been trained by pet food companies? So that's evolution; how we evolved is the key to understanding. I'm not going to leave it at that. Yes.

Puppies And Bone Density (1:07:02)

Rob Ryan  1:07:02

And one of the things you brought up about Mariah's puppies is that it's so important to get the minerals in them. I mean, they are. They're layer upon layer daily, growing those bones and getting bigger. And that can come from all the raw, meaty bones of a good diet and connective tissue. But I also see many people who need to feed more calories and fat. They're buying lean meat. Yes. and

Dr. Ian Billinghurst  1:07:40

nasty rope. Oh, yes.

Rob Ryan  1:07:43

You Yeah, very much. And having enough calories is essential. So I hope people will go to you, and you'll be encouraged by you. I mean, I know you will inspire them. But they'll be inspired by talking to you to permit themselves to feed more organ meat and fat. I'm about that. Yeah, no, I have a, I have a grass-fed beef. Subscription that comes to me, for me, that's cool. I'm not a giant, and I'll eat fat; I have no problem with it. I'm not a huge, fat, trimming guy. I don't, and I won't eat it. So I trim it off. I give it to Gus. And he gets a good eight to 12 ounces a ton at a time of fat trimmings. And he's better for it for his code, his Oregon Health, all that stuff. And another quick little thing that popped up when you mentioned people's concerns. And that was, Oh, darn, I lost it. Anyway, this is life, but it is all lost; it probably will come back. So, do we answer? Let's see. So the question that, again, that c plus Dino had is? What are your thoughts on daily balanced meals for his balance over time? So, did we get an answer from him around?

Mariah  1:09:12

Yeah, but it's both from me and Dr. B; it's mixed up. It could be more straightforward, but I talk to people about what foods provide what nutrients the National Research Council and AAFCO say our pets need. I tell them how to make their meals fit that, and in a way, I make it more confusing and scarier if they provide only some of that. So, Dr. B helped with that.

Dr. Ian Billinghurst  1:09:46

What you're doing for those who need that comfort is tremendous. So, for those people who need their comfort and can't conceptualize this whole idea of feeding raw, that was important, and they don't have time to think about it. What you're doing for those people is brilliant because, otherwise, I'd be feeding kibble, and their pets would suffer. So good for all. And let me applaud you for that. Because when I gave my dog a bone, I wanted the world to change. And gradually, the world is changing. And you're part of that change. So isn't that wonderful? You're here. Somebody who was born around that time is now part of the legacy. That's. And that's, thank you.

Mariah  1:10:37

That means a lot.

Rob Ryan  1:10:39

That's great. On that note, we'll leave it there and want to thank you so much—Mariah from paws of prey.com and tangy in the back.

Mariah  1:10:50

Yes, he helped a lot today.

Rob Ryan  1:10:52

I love some tangy things. And then all social media is positive. Praise that, right? Yep. Good, honest, and impressive. YouTube channel. So type positive prayer within the YouTube search bar and lots of good. So, when people go to your website, what do you recommend? What's their first stop? What do you recommend they come first?

Mariah  1:11:22

So, if they come to the website, there's a big spot where you can choose a dog, cat, or ferret. Select your pet; if you have multiple, you can click to go back to the next pet. And I have a cheat sheet that you can take a look at. And that kind of breakdown, the raw diet—what foods provide what nutrients are said to be needed for pets—grew up both growing up and as adults. And it's just a big cheat sheet for you to reference, which greatly helps you.

Rob Ryan  1:11:53

Great. Great. Well, thank you so much more. You are doing great work. You're providing a fantastic service. And you're giving counsel and permission for many people to be brave and, you know, step outside of the kibble paradigm and be so thankful. We're grateful to know you and meet you. Yes. Thank

Mariah  1:12:19

Thank you so much. Being on here is an honor, and I greatly appreciate it. Thank you so much.

Rob Ryan  1:12:25

All right. Thanks, everybody, for joining who’s live and who's watching in the replay. Have a great day.