How Do You Treat The Microbiome? (3:37)
- Chinese Herbal Formula: Derived from Two Formulas Used in Both Humans and Animals
- Deciphering the Mechanism of Action
- Distinguishing Between the Local 'Suburban' Immune System and the All-encompassing Systemic Immunity
- A Reactive Immune System: The Role of Cytokines in Sounding the Alarm
- Seeking Balance: Dampening Systemic Immunity While Boosting Local Immune Responses
- Identifying the Constituent Strains to Gus
The Role Of Lactobacillus In The Microbiome (14:07)
- Lactobacillus – A Pivotal Bacteria Producing Fatty Acids That Steer the Immune System
- Raw Diets and Their Distinct Mechanism in Reducing Dog Inflammation and Itching
- Recent Advances in Understanding the Microbiome and the Significance of Fiber
- The Perfect Union of Fiber, Probiotics, and Prebiotics
Can I Stop Giving Vegetables To My Dog? (19:07)
- Dr. Ian Billinghurst's Raw Data Feed Combines Plant Material with Gus
- Vegetable Variety – Dr. Billinghurst's Advice for Diverse Fiber and Nutrition
- Post-Vaccination: Dogs and Exposure to Pollens, Grasses, and More
- Highlighting the Lifelong Impacts of Mis-timed Events on an Animal's Immune System
- Comparing a Dog's Immune System to the Dynamics of a Bicycle Wheel
The Science Behind Probiotics And Antibiotics (24:14)
- Age-old Science Underscores This Fact, Separate from Anti-Vaccine Sentiments
- A Surge in Peanut and Wheat Allergies Post-1989
- Emerging Vet Advice – Avoid Probiotics During Antibiotics Course
- Morrison's Recommendation – Delay Probiotics Until Antibiotics are Completed
- The Acceptability of Combining Probiotics with Antibiotics
The Dual Role Of Scutellaria And Bupleurum (28:59)
- Understanding Chinese Medicine's Duality with Scutellaria and Bupleurum for Heat Management
- Key Players in Herbal Healing – Rou Cong Rong, Angelica, Peony,and Gou Teng
- Challenging the '80s and '90s Myth – Inflammation Persists Beyond the Disappearance of a Rash
- The Brain's Crucial Role in Blood Vessel Lining and Inflammation Control
The Problem With Leaky Gut (35:21)
- Malfunctioning White Blood Cells Lead to Skin Inflammation and Develop Holes
- From Leaky Gut to Leaky Vessels, A Different Pathology with Similar Leaks
- Changing the Dog's Diet as the Initial Step Towards Health Success
- Highlighting the Often Overlooked Innate Immune System
Covid’s Effect On The Body (40:19)
- Understanding COVID-19 Fatalities and the Impact of Over-Nutrition on the Immune System
- COVID-19's Devastating Nature
- The Adaptive Immune System's Role in Reducing Innate Response Intensity
- Lyme Disease and the Body's Violent Early Inflammatory Response
Do You Need To Understand All The Details Of This? (45:04)
- Navigating Dog Itching: The Role of Diet and Knowledge Gaps
- Guidance Through Scientific Insights
- The Dog's Body: A Complex Ecosystem Thriving on Diversity
- Debunking the 'Magic Bullet' Myth in Health and Disease
Why Don’t Veterinarians Discuss These Things As Vets? (50:18)
- The Financial Education Gap in Veterinary Studies
- org: A Goldmine of Free Insights on Human Health
- The Pivotal Role of Plants in Cellular Function
- Embracing the Wholeness: The Benefits of a Whole Food Approach
- The Evolution of Herbal Medicine from Food to Treatment in Chinese History
- Time-Tested Remedies: Classical Formulas from Millennia Past
Dealing With Itching In Your Dog (58:20)
- The Nightly Distress: Dogs and Persistent Itching
- Toward Drug Reduction: The Safe Transition
- Beyond Probiotics: The Need for Fresh Food in a Dog's Diet
- Seasonal Allergies: A Biannual Challenge for Dogs
- Understanding the Biannual Microbiome Shift in Dogs
- The Annual Circulatory Wave Impacting the Body
Pharmaceuticals Vs. Biotics (1:07:04)
- Pharmaceuticals: Navigating Complex Health Challenges
- The Public's Quest for Quick Health Solutions
- The Financial Powerhouse of Big Pharma
- Our Inquisitive, Cost-Conscious Customers
- Cost-Efficiency Meets Product Excellence
- Morrison's Vision for Canine Long-Term Health
- Morrison's Push for a Deeper Conversation on Aging
Rob Ryan 00:02
Hey everybody! While I'm here with Dr. Steve Marsden, I asked Dr. Steve to come on because I got a hold of one of his products. And every May, I have my calendar starred, Gussy’s. It was the past. It was Xanthan 12. It's a Chinese herb, and I've had him on it for a few years; around June, he starts to get itching, usually, more of itching that happens when I'm rubbing, kissing, touching, or anything. It can get pretty; there are some seasons where it gets pretty bad where he's just like it was last year when he'd have these periods of constant itching. Now, this dog is on raw food; this dog doesn't have any serious injuries, except the one that was a couple of years ago, which is how I created the company and the product he's got. He's been given the best health care. So, if you are struggling with your dog's itching, I want you to know I understand. There are many reasons, and we will go into those today. Why could this be happening? But this is a seasonal issue. It is pollen-related. And it might even be grass-related. And I haven't done the thing where I take them to a dermatologist and do all that testing; I haven't done that because it's been significantly mitigated. It's fairly mitigated. And, it's entirely to my satisfaction of the past that this Xanthan 12 In the past, at work, it would take a month. And Steve, thank you for listening to this because I want to give a background about them; it will take about a month to kick in, so I set that up on my calendar in May. Now I know Cessorex, the gold standard herb you've formulated. And it's a powder instead of the pills I give. And we're going to talk about what's in it because I have never had a situation where, in three days, I was starting to see He's not itching in the morning. He's not itching when he's bored. He's not itching at night; this is the usual time he would start to itch, and it would get progressively worse. So, I waited until mid-June to start them on this. So he was into his decent May. And I had this, and I said, What? I'm going to try. I'm going to. I've got this in my arsenal if I need it; I'm going to pull it out if I need it; he started it. I gave it to him for three days. That blew me away. So Gus is six years old. I've been with him long enough to know his usual patterns. And so what I'd like to talk to you about, Dr. Marsden, is, let's start again with what is in Cessorex. And then, we can also talk about mechanisms of action. And what these dogs are dealing with, especially this time of year, spring and summer.
How Do You Treat The Microbiome? (3:37)
Dr. Steve Marsden 03:37
While Cessorex is made of two Chinese herbal formulas, used first and foremost for people, I've spent my career figuring out why these formulas were developed for people treating animals. So, one of them is a former coal miner group firm that's been around for 2000 years. And it is a big part of why the formula works. And then there's a more miniature formula called material combination, which contains four herbs that optimize circulation. So, one of the reasons why skin inflammation doesn't stop is because of just the blood supply to the skin and many animals and many people. It's compromised because of how we eat now. Gussy probably had a great response because I'm going to guess you're feeding him pretty well. And I'm going to think he's getting some probiotics, too. And those are two hugely essential pieces. And it's still itchy for a dog that receives excellent, supportive care. No, they will respond to Cessorex because the foundation has been laid. And so all that needs to happen is we need to catalyze some changes that the system is primed to support long term, once they're there. So what exactly are those changes? The best way to understand how the formula works is to think about how people normally live. So most Canadians and Americans live in a bedroom community that, say, a suburb. And then there's a big city nearby, and you live much of your life in that suburb. But even if you're not at work, you're constantly influenced by that big city. If something happens there, you'll probably hear about it, and it will be a big deal for you. So this, there's a parallel in the body, a very, very accurate parallel. So we have what bedroom communities are: the body, they're your skin. They're in your body linings, your intestinal tract, your ears, and even your airways. They're in the body; those outlying communities are the body's periphery, which interfaces and engages with the external world. And then, how's the equivalency of the internet, the highways or the media, the television or radio, how all this information gets transmitted to us? Well, that's what we call a systemic immune system. So, we have a local immune system. That's the suburbs. And then we have a systemic immune system that knits the whole thing together. Yeah. Which suburb of the body is the most important? And it turns out that the body thinks it's the digestive tract. So, when we look at the local immune cells, where are they most concentrated? It's in the intestinal tract. This makes sense because if you get a breach and that wall, these bacteria you're pleased with being in your colon, suddenly you're not so happy when they're in your kidney, liver, or heart valves. So there's a massive concentration of binders—more bacteria in that intestinal tract than cells in your body. Like, yes, I'm preaching to the priests. The priests of the microbiome, but anyway, for the sake of your audience, there are many bacteria in there, and we're happy as long as they stay in there; we're not so glad if they're on the move. So, this substantial immune system is inside the intestinal lining. And we're very invested in keeping this barrier between microbes and the immune system, more or less impregnable, a little bit, a little, some windows, so we can see what's going on there. But by and large, it is sealed up and does not sound like a big job, but the bacteria help. So we have good bacteria that land on the wall and help maintain it. So, it helped make sure it didn't develop holes. So when we get holes, that's when we have a problem. So we have that local immune system has some failing, and then the immune system gets too good a look. So there's the immune system on the intestinal lining side of the wall, reaching through; we have things like secretory IgA that may be something you've heard of, a type of immune system tool that is very far removed. Right? It's a bedroom community. If those tools fail, then this immune system on the immediate inside of the wall panics and starts to create a hell of a buzz. It sends out compounds called cytokines; various types of cytokines are chemicals that make cells do things. That's where the phrase comes from. So these chemicals go out, and they go to all the other communities like everyone's sitting around listening to their radio during whatever the Great Depression, fireside chat, so everyone's hearing in a fireside chat, and here wow. We should panic because the British are coming into British income and mixing my metaphors. But whatever.
Dr. Steve Marsden 10:03
Throw in War of the Worlds and Game of Thrones is the same story of people panicking because of what's happening in some distant location. So, these local communities are told to up their game, like, you should be more vigilant. And so they become more observant. They become vigilant against pollen, and they become vigilant against bacteria, and they become vigilant against yeast. All of this is triggered by something happening in a completely different citadel. So that's called cell-mediated hypersensitivity. That's the scientific name for all that. And that's what Cessorex treats. You can imagine how a solution would be; we need to calm down the buzz. Calm down the message and the media.
At the same time, we need to shore up the local immune system to more easily deal with what's going on at these distant locations, especially in the intestinal tract. Why are we especially concerned about that? Because if the wall has been breached, there are bad guys on the other side; we need to displace the bad guys and repopulate with good guys. If we don't have some locally acting immune stimulant, dealing with a disrupted microbiome becomes tough. At the same time, if you strengthen the immune system, you ramp up the buzz. So we need almost an impossible solution. We need something that calms this systemic immunity but ramps up local immunity. Cessorex and minor Brook Farm, in particular, are the only things I have ever found in 35 years as a holistic practitioner that do that. So one of the clues that will work, aside from the fact that you're already feeding a proper diet If your dog is still itchy and people reach for cytopoint, go for atopic because they're tired or are dog scratching on it. So they use these immune suppressive drugs, and they work. But as soon as you stop them, it comes back. Why? Because it's only dealing with the buzz. It's not dealing with what's happening at these interfaces; you need a solid and calm immune system here. And that seems like an impossible question. However, this Minor Brook Farm delivers, and it's not an accident. That's actually how the real Chinese understood the form of the work. They used different words, such as the immune system, the microbiome, and buzz, but they understood that the body was in a situation where, on the one hand, it was too inflamed.
But on the other hand, there's a pathogen that needs to be pushed out. Sometimes, that is a pathogen. They've used what we call bacteria and yeast as pathogens and viewed pollen as pathogens if it's bothering you. That's how the formula works. And so you're guessing he did well, probably because he's on a heaping dose of gaseous good. I assume this is Gussy's Gus, and you get fame?
Rob Ryan 13:41
Yeah, exactly. And raw food.
Dr. Steve Marsden 13:45
So, the final component Now people might say, if they're watching this, and they say, Well, my dog is on raw food, and he's on probiotics, like, what's the problem? So, there's a final component to this. And what are the strains that make up gaseous goods?
The Role Of Lactobacillus In The Microbiome (14:07)
Rob Ryan 14:07
Lactobacillus?
Dr. Steve Marsden 14:10
So, Lactobacillus is a key species. Veterinary clinics have other probiotics made by Purina that somebody said, and I have used this as a probiotic here. It's all the rich, while probiotics might be all the rage, but not that one. What Lactobacillus turns out to play a vital role? Some of us have evolved to be dependent on bacteria like Lactobacillus. They're whom we want to hang on our wall, maintaining it because they don't just maintain the wall as it turns out; same with Bifidobacterium. But that's a different bacterium that supports a wall, and Lactobacillus has an additional role. And what it does is produce volatile fatty acids that regulate our immune system. So, we absorb these bacterial metabolites. And they go into our system and calm down a systemic immune reaction. Raw diets make many dogs less inflamed and less itchy. And there's an entirely different mechanism behind that, and we can talk about it if you'd like. But it is another mechanism. But what they do, unfortunately, is cause a microbial shift, which overall is highly positive, except the one bacteria that vanishes is Lactobacillus. So, Lactobacillus needs soluble fiber and fermentable carbs to survive. One of the advantages of a fermented product like in Gussy's Gut is that you're providing the food—the favorite food of the Lactobacillus. So it has; it's like putting Lactobacillus on a bus with a snack. So it's not so ravenously hungry when it gets to the other end of the trip. So, you're equipping it for the journey until it can adapt to its surroundings, right? Raw diets often lack fiber and carbs, and we have a different issue if the diet has too many carbs. But if the diet is, I don't know, 15% Plant material—yeah, that's about the magic number at which we start to support Lactobacillus. And if we support Lactobacillus, it starts to produce things like propionate protonate, gets absorbed, and calms down our immune system. We don't need so many herbs anymore; we don't need so many drugs because our microbiome is starting to maintain our immune system and the wall. And that's how all those components fit together. You had to have the three you just needed. Gussie just needed something that tweaked his hands. Yeah, build up one part.
Rob Ryan 17:12
I want to review quickly, but first, let's return to the nearest fiber. In the last five years, we've come a long way toward understanding the microbiome. We played this whole game for 20 years, and a probiotic was a probiotic, which was great. And what it means to buy a probiotic is that you purchased a product, a microbe mainly suited for the extensive manufacturing process. So it can survive these massive volumes, which could be any size—1520 liters, 100 liters, or 1000 liters—it doesn't matter. That's why they have to sustain this process in the manufacturing process. The ones that win are the ones that can survive this manufacturing process. That's number one. And so I urge everybody to look into strains; they're essential. And then the next level, Pro, is just what you brought up, which is marrying the suitable fiber with the right probiotic. And that's prebiotic, which is another word for that. And it's what the organism can eat. What I picked out of what you were saying was that many dogs are on raw diets but don't have the plant material that's the so-called whole prey diet.
Can I Stop Giving Vegetables To My Dog? (19:07)
Rob Ryan 19:07
I've learned from Dr. Ian Billinghurst that feed is raw and includes It still provides plant material. In addition to Gus, he's got a lot of ours. Our biggest question is, can I stop giving vegetables because people want to remove a step by giving us their gut? We say yeah, sure. Sometimes, you can have a day without going to the grocery store, and your added vegetables are picked up. He's gotten there, and you're fine. But no, not long-term. You want to know, and we recommend you pick the vegetables that aren't in because he's got them, and you put them in your dog's diet for added fiber and nutrition. And frankly, you don't need that much because he's got you; you're not your dog's not getting in a thread is not getting it. That's not what we do. We're not a whole complete fiber, by the dose we suggest you get, so that's very interesting. And you'll also want to wonder if I'm imagining something. But could there have been something where, when I think about it, this dog is so damn healthy? I know his whole history; I know everything about him. So how do these dogs that are this healthy have this issue? And I'm sure some of it is genetic and some of it epigenetic, but that's so complicated that you can't go down that rabbit hole. Could anything be related? Do you think, like, when a dog is vaccinated and exposed to certain things like pollen and grasses, that whole vaccination process is supposed to elicit an immune reaction? So, it reminds me of, like, the analogy I would make since you're now you and I are very analogy driven is, that so-called imprint phase of a puppy is that whatever ten-week phase, and so whatever the hell happens, the fire truck comes down your street. Now, the dogs are forever afraid of the fire truck. So, a dog gets a vaccine, goes in the grass, and gets a specific dose of pollen. Could that be something that the immune system starts to do? At that point, go?
Dr. Steve Marsden 21:23
Yeah, many variables can influence this immune story. And I oversimplified it, but not to the point of being false. But as an example of what you're talking about, what could complicate it? Let's say you had a young dog, and it got an intestinal infection. And it was four months, and they thought we should give it bacteria or antibiotics, just in case it's Parvo or something. So the dog, meanwhile, its intestinal tract is trying to figure out who's the good guy and who's the bad guy in the intestinal tract. And it's deep in the learning process when its agent comes in and completely shifts the microbial population. So then, it's brand new bugs for a while, and the immune system is going, Oh, new people. Okay, well, and these must also be good guys. So, it begins to recognize pathogenic bacteria as friendly. And those pathogenic bacteria are then allowed to sit on the wall, and then they start pulling bricks out of it. That's one example of where an event, even just one single event, in an animal's life at the wrong time could set it up for a lifetime of a struggle with the immune system. It doesn't mean it's not insurmountable, but it tips the scales towards that dog being allergic. Yeah, as I said, vaccines, if their action is on the immune system, then they can work it a bit. The immune response is feeble if you give just the parvovirus from the vaccine and not the adjuvants to a dog. The adjuvants are the chemicals that are added to the vaccine to ramp up the reaction to this parvovirus and artificial pirate virus, which otherwise the body might have said, that's not a big deal, we'll let that one slide. So you inject immune-stimulating compounds, they're not specific to Parvo, they'll ramp up anything. And a dog's immune system is a bit like a bicycle wheel to stick with our analogy-driven show. And when you flip a bike over and spin the wheel, it just keeps going and going and going and going. That's the dog's immune system. Once it's been primed by something such as these adjuvants, it can take a long time for that to wind down, and in the meantime, any immune-mediated pathology, of course, will get worse.
The Science Behind Probiotics And Antibiotics (24:14)
Dr. Steve Marsden 24:14
So, the science behind that is it's old and unassailable. So there's, it's not an anti-vaccine remark. It's a scientific reality remark. So,
Rob Ryan 24:26
It's just that these are mechanisms. And the very thing that gets this particular example of a vaccine to work is that it stimulates causes and alertness in the system. That's how that works. So, it is a mechanism of how a vaccine makes a vaccine work. So you must then believe that things like 1989, the proliferation of peanut and wheat allergies, and all these things that have come about since then are just like our dogs being exposed to pollen or grasses. It is at least a question we should explore; it's at least something. Now, I'm going to think only a little beyond this call. And this shows what that means to Gus; I'm interested in resolving his issue. So, back to this formula, Cessorex, I see that, as I see it, your product is like food. And I'm always looking for a food-based natural because these are herbs. I'm looking for ways to support, add to, and do no harm. Where there's meant, let's say, these minimal, negative impact symptoms. And so, this whole thing you mentioned should blow everybody that blew mine. And I've heard this in other ways before, but how you brought this up about the pathogens confuses the good microbes. That whole confusion thing is ultimately how the system works. And, one of the things that they're starting to say now is that this didn't, this wasn't like, ever since I've had my dogs if they ever got, they had a procedure, they had to get antibiotics. I was tripling probiotics in them. And they're now saying, No, don't do that. Don't do any probiotics during antibiotics. And when I say they are, I'm specifically thinking about Karen Becker and many other great vets. I don't know if you believe that, Dr. Morrison, but I want to know. Still, the wait until that series is over antibiotics, and then you can look at supporting and supplementing with because it might hold up what I've been told, and also I believe, as Holly GaNS from Animal Biome says, it holds a place in the gut cells. You want to avoid that place being taken up by open terrain. After that, that antibiotic is done to be able to receive good nutrients and good probiotics afterward; it is that kind of how you understand it.
Dr. Steve Marsden 27:45
Yeah, I see what you're saying. And the logic has always been, well, if you give a probiotic with an antibiotic, you're going to expand some of the efforts of the antibiotic on treating probiotics, number one. And number two, if you're given the probiotics when you're given the antibiotics, you're missing that big moment when the antibiotics are done. And the place needs to be repopulated. And if you will use them once, that's when you do. That sounds like logic to me. And I would agree with that. However, I never really see a problem with using probiotics and antibiotics. I couldn't stop once you stopped the antibiotics and kept going. And then you'll have the best of both worlds. If you're giving a probiotic that isn't as touched by that antibiotic and some space is being created, they'll go on immediately. So, there's never a downside to someone using something like your product during and after antibiotics; I would not avoid probiotics.
The Dual Role Of Scutellaria And Bupleurum (28:59)
Rob Ryan 28:59
Okay. And so, are there any other we went through Bupleurum, and did we go into the other seat
Dr. Steve Marsden 29:11
It works because one plant, Scutellaria, is within the minor Bupleurum formula. That has a, the Chinese say, that's the part with this anti-inflammatory effect. And they would look at Bupleurum and say that's the part that pushes the bad guys out. In other words, the duality in their minds came from using Scutellaria and Bupleurum together with one so-called clearing heat and the other dispersing pathogens. We could call that what they call dissipating heat. We call it anti-inflammatory, but they call it dispersing pathogens; we say strengthening A local immune system. Now, the reality is, though, that both of those plants do both of those things. So there, it's more neatly divided than Chinese medicine would have believed. In other words, Bupleurum calms down the systemic immune system tremendously, even as it boosts local immunity. And Scutellaria boosts local immunity, even as it calms down systemic inflammation. So, both plants are doing the heavy lifting, and both are significant requirements. And then we have ginseng in there, which also helps in these avenues. And the other thing that the former works, or does that's beneficial, which, maybe Gussy didn't need this so much, but other dogs do, is counter stress. So, skullcap, who's getting right now?
Rob Ryan 30:58
He doesn't need that. Listen, if I can take the camera and show you what he's doing. Yeah, talk as no stress.
Dr. Steve Marsden 31:08
Add the problem with a stick to ensure he's still alive.
Rob Ryan 31:11
No, his Contensis can be up. Sorry. I just had to say that.
Dr. Steve Marsden 31:15
No, I imagined that would be the case. But Scutellaria and ginseng are all definitely no stress. Scutellaria and ginseng have an adaptogenic anti-stress type of effect. Why is that important? Because an animal that's stressed, and a lot of them are if they're chronically itchy and uncomfortable. In an animal that stress-secretes cortisol, cortisol acts as a local immune suppressant, allowing bad-guy bacteria to proliferate. So, having an anti-stress component to a skin formula was essential. The other kinds of four herbs are doing the heavy lifting, and there are foreign materials, so Rou Cong Rong and Angelica, Peony and the Gou Teng. So what do they do? They, and again, this is something other than what Gussy probably needed because his diet is so good. But back in the 80s and 90s, it's too if you request an MD This or your average event, and you say so. So why, what, when does inflammation stop? You get, let's see, you get some rash, like when does the rash stop? And the logical response would be, well, when the thing causing the inflammation goes away, we use critical discounters on antibiotics and bathing. It's we're trying to get rid of what causes inflammation. And then it just dwindles like some campfire until it eventually goes out. That was always a belief up until the 90s. And in the 90s, they discovered that that is not true. So, the body must actively switch inflammation off. So it doesn't just sound like a candle that slowly burns out. It's like a light switch in your kitchen has to be turned off; otherwise, it's just on. So, in the cruel twist of fate, the irony is that the enzyme that drives the development of acute inflammation is the enzyme that turns it off. So if you suppress that enzyme with nonsteroidal, if you have an arthritic dog or corticosteroids or an itchy dog rate, the intensity of the inflammatory response subsides. But it's not going away. Why is it not going away? Because you have disabled the mechanism for turning inflammation off. And so it just slowly gears back up again. So drugs are one way we accidentally disable this inflammation off switch. The other primary mechanism is food. So processed food, whether canned or kibble. It's it; it causes the perpetuation of inflammation and turns out that the cell that has all the control in the body, you might think, Oh, is that the immune system again or something else? Impressive. Is it the brain isn't neurons? No, it's the lining of the blood vessels. Just the Teflon. That lines Your blood vessels. That's what controls inflammation; this lowly little peon in the body has the keys to the kingdom, as it turns out. So when those cells malfunction, you get a rash. So what does it look like? You can imagine that you've got a, imagine my fist is like a, outside of a blood vessel.
The Problem With Leaky Gut (35:21)
Rob Ryan 35:22
there's a minute of the cable. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Dr. Steve Marsden 35:25
Now, when these cells are malfunctioning, they start to pull apart. And they begin to develop holes. I have another leaky problem. This time, it is a leaky vessel instead of a leaky gut, a completely different pathology, but you still see many leaks. Why are the holes a problem? Because white blood cells creep into the skin, they cause inflammation, right? We can't drain off the inflammation because the cells need to be gathered together and sealed for the fluid in the tissue to be drained off; it's called starling forces. Nothing, you need to know that. Wow, this is called endothelial dysfunction. Yep, it's most; the other thing it does is narrow. So, the vessels start to constrict. And they begin to atrophy slowly. They're pissed off, they're pissed off, and so the skin stops getting nourished. And it's consistently populated by inflammatory cells. So go, Well, I'm here, and I've got a hammer, and everything appears to be a nail. So that starts hitting. That's the situation with many dogs, many people and many cats, much everything. Yeah. And it happens in your joints, it happens in your skin, it happens, it's one of the causes of leaky gut is this chronic, this chronic smoldering inflammation that's damaging the gut wall, it's one of the causes. So we have to reach these endothelial cells and get them to seal up and the vessel to dilate. And when we do that, then the inflammation on the skin subsides. That's what those other four herbs do, is they make up for the fact that there's this breakdown. And they're there; they facilitate the production of different compounds, appropriately called resolvins. Because it resolves inflammation. So, resolvins and protections are elaborated in response to those herbs. And they do what broken down cyclooxygenase can't do, and, just cause the vessels to seal up, that's it, that's the magic, you cause ships to see what that's it. And when that happens, white blood cells keep flowing past. They don't go into the skin anymore. And that's when you switch off inflammation. So die. It's a significant cause of your dogs and a healthy diet. So he was again primed to respond to Cessorex; I'd love to take all the credit, but you deserve the credit for giving him a healthy diet and the probiotics, and then you set the stage for this rapid success that you.
Rob Ryan 38:10
saw, what you're saying is he didn't have those issues to resolve because if he did have those issues to resolve, it might have taken longer, yes, directs to have taken hold and kicked in. Is that what I'm hearing?
Dr. Steve Marsden 38:25
Yes. And that's one of the reasons why I tell people the first thing you should do for your dog is change the diet.
Rob Ryan 38:35
And that's what we say.
Dr. Steve Marsden 38:37
Yeah, it's it's the reality of it because it lays a foundation for success. Suppose it only fixes some of the problems. Sometimes, it improves the situation on its own. You don't know half of the dogs.
Rob Ryan 38:50
It happened to me with my first dog.
Dr. Steve Marsden 38:54
Yep. Yeah. Why did that happen? I would like to know if we have time to go into that. But there's. So there's a third immune system we talked about, too. There's the local immune system, the suburbs. There is a systemic immune system, which is the network that connects to all those little suburbs. So, what's the other immune system? The different immune system has nothing to do with antibodies and lymphocytes and cytokines and none of those. It's our earliest immune system. It's the one we had before we had all that other stuff. And one that we have is called innate immunity. Innate. So yeah, and so that natural immune response, it doesn't need antibodies. It uses mast cells and some components that we have erroneously ascribed to the immune system per se, but their mast cells, degranulation, histamine, and stuff that's part of the innate immune system. Hmm, that's the suburb thing that's adaptive immunity. So, the natural immune system is, like throwing the baby out with the bathwater, it's like, you've got a problem, we're going to do a scorched earth policy to get rid of it.
Covid’s Effect On The Body (40:19)
Dr. Steve Marsden 40:19
And so it's this violent, destructive, needlessly destructive act, often untargeted. It's why so many people have died of COVID; you're more likely to suffer from this excess of this innate immune system if you're overnourished. So most of us are overnourished, and some more than others, those people carrying much extra weight, they're primed their innate immune systems are primed to react aggressively towards any new thing. And that makes sense. It makes sense. Because if you think about, let's say, it was 6 million years ago, and we're walking through the African savanna, and we find a big pile of sugar, or a big giant donut, while we're, what is it oil, oil fat, and sugar? It's all there. Yeah, so we'll go ahead, and we'll going to sit down, we're going to consume the giant donut. Yeah, anybody else who comes along will sit down and try to eat their portion, too. And in a world of scarce food, there's suddenly much of it in one location. And you have low food and relatively small numbers of organisms. And they're suddenly all gathering in one place; you could wipe out an entire population if one of them happened to have a bug, and they spread it to everybody else. And they applied it to everybody else because they're all gathered around this giant donut in the savanna. So, what's a real-world situation? Thanksgiving would be a real-world situation. All these people gather for Thanksgiving, eating a lot. They're in this temporarily overnourished state that Prime's innate immune system overreacts if it happens to encounter something during that feast. So, of course, we're feasting every day, all day. So we won't start walking around, always prime to respond. COVID was new. Right? That's the whole idea. Everyone's satisfied now that it was an engineered virus. So it's fresh by definition. And as a result, we needed to figure out what to do with it. Eventually, somebody said, Hey, we can get the adaptive immune system involved here. We can create antibodies. We can recruit lymphocytes, we can use all this machinery, and we could get this going on the problem of COVID. When the adaptive immune system comes along, it dramatically reduces the intensity of the immune response, the innate immune response, and there's no need for scorched earth. We have something that's very targeted here. We can tell you exactly how to attack and where, and we will get this done without the adaptive immune system. We're just blowing shit up.
Rob Ryan 43:32
All right, yeah. Well, it's, it's, it's an intelligent system—the Yeah.
Dr. Steve Marsden 43:38
So, a dog goes on a raw diet. A raw diet is healthy in so many ways. But one of its benefits is that it takes more work to digest, and kibble moves through the system much more slowly. The dog has to work harder, and calories come in much more slowly. It's the antidote to overnutrition. So when a dog is inflamed, and in two weeks on a raw diet, and they're not, you had taken the turkey away from the Thanksgiving table and said, That's it, the feast is over, everyone goes home. So there's this, this calming down of the innate immune system, and the ticking away of this scorched earth policy. Lyme disease is another example of a bug where the body has this violent inflammatory response, especially in the early stages, because it doesn't know what else to do. Because the adaptive immune system is only sometimes that effective for Lyme disease. So it just keeps going and going and going. So when we look at some of the things that we struggled most with in medicine, in the way of bugs, we realize that their bugs were they; they can cloak themselves and hide from the adaptive immune system. And so now we're just relying on an innate immune system. And we're hoping we take out more of the bug than we do of ourselves. And that's why And that's why we get such problems with Lyme disease, for example.
Do You Need To Understand All The Details Of This? (45:04)
Rob Ryan 45:04
Wow. So how does somebody who has a dog that's itching and doesn't understand, hasn't seen this show, doesn't understand what they're dealing with? Doesn't understand the implications of the diet and all of that? Do they need to know all of this stuff? Or can they take a great product? Like Cessorex, I'm asking more for the person watching this right now: how much do I need to understand? Or do I go to some obvious basics?
Dr. Steve Marsden 45:48
Yeah, you don't need to understand any of it. All the research into this stuff was an attempt to explain something that was happening without anyone knowing it beforehand. But it's working. So we'll use it, how to raw diets get rid of inflammation, well, now we know. But in the end, it was like, I don't know. But when I put my dog on Raw, they're less inflamed. Okay, then, let's do that for every inflamed dog. Later on, we'll find out the reasons. But you can take those steps. Now, science can inform us, and they help us understand that a raw diet should have some plant material in it, especially a dog that's on a raw diet, as he achieved, they need some plant material. And they probably need a probiotic. And I should go on accessorize. And those three things together, the the plant, that modest amount of plant material and a raw food, something like us, he's got assessor x. That's it. That's all you need. And even though it seems simple and almost too easy to be accurate, you must appreciate the incredible number of mechanisms being invoked. You don't need to know those mechanisms; realize they're there. And that's why the herbs act 100 different ways from Sunday, not to mention the probiotics in the diet.
Rob Ryan 47:12
Yeah, I mean, what you're, what you're doing is all of those are highly complex, nutrient-dense things. Exactly.
Dr. Steve Marsden 47:21
And complexity is the key. Yeah, that's, that's health is complexity, complex therapies to create a complex system, it's the idea that we could have a magic bullet to take apart a disease. That was one time that was wishful thinking, and was I realistic, depending on what you're talking about. But now we know that the body is an incredibly complex ecosystem. And ecosystems are always more stable, with more species in it. And so our species are, are the phytonutrients that we're eating, and the breadth of the nutrients from the raw diet, the whole prey diet, for example. And then you've got whatever it is, something like 15 or 16 different herbs. And each of those has 10 or 15 other active compounds, and they're going in, and then you have the Lactobacillus, and you can count 15 different ways that it's influencing your immune system. Like that, the point is you take a few complex things that are strategically chosen. And you end up with this massive physiological effect, as opposed to taking one compound, several 100 milligrams of a single molecule, and suppressing your immune system, one aspect of it, and then thinking that will solve the problem. That's not going to solve an ecological crisis. It's dandy.
Rob Ryan 48:49
Yeah. You have your Facebook group that seems like I've read so many posts; they're incredibly detailed. And I know you spent much time answering each question. So, I know you've you, although I haven't read one, you must have had clients doing those shots for the allergies. And I have three friends doing that. And I just learned a new one today, just today. And I don't know anything about this drug. But here's what I know. Like, we're not, we're not. Why aren't you looking at the root cause? Why aren't you fixing the? I gave her some to this friend of mine this morning. I gave her some tips, and she will change her diet. She's going to do some other things. But it would be best if you examined why this is happening. You're just adding a shot to it. And there's got to be some adverse side effects.
Dr. Steve Marsden 49:52
Yeah, it's impressive that we can get by with those drugs, sometimes it. In other words, many people use them, and they find more good than bad. The problem is that it doesn't solve anything. Depending on the drug, the problem will occur next month or tomorrow. And eventually, many times, medications like Cutpoint, for example, stop working. It's like, and then what are you going to do?
Why Don’t Veterinarians Discuss These Things As Vets? (50:18)
Dr. Steve Marsden 50:18
So then, why don't we discuss these things as veterinarians because we're not taught them? Why are we not taught them? Because we need to figure out how to make much money from what we're discussing. So we don't have to stop looking at modern human and veterinary medicine as the answer to disease; we have to recognize that they are business models that are highly successful and bring comfort, right? They have value, or people will use them. So they are very soothing and, sometimes, very potently. So, we should stop looking at conventional medicine as a solution for these problems because they don't deal with complex solutions. They sell, and we discovered this drug, refined it, developed it, and spent $50 million in clinical trials. And this molecule is what we're bringing to the market. And this is what we're training our doctors to use. So there's a trickle-down flow of information here driven by science, which is gone by the pharmaceutical and pet food industries. That's the Applied Science that veterinarians hear about and apply in their practices. There's a financial disincentive for that educational system to discuss what you and I are discussing. That doesn't mean the research isn't there. It means the veterinarians must read it because no one's told them it's there. So that's an MDS; they must ferret this stuff alone.
Yeah, there are some handy resources for human medicine. One of my favorites, if you want the unvarnished truth about human medicine and human nutrition, if it's not inappropriate to say, and you can cut it out if it is, is nutritionfacts.org. And it's written or not written, but as a bunch of videos, all free content, 100% of it's free, and it's by an MD named Michael Greger. And all he does all day is just read and assimilate and synthesize human nutritional research and tell us all this stuff that doesn't have a profit agenda behind it, that is being cranked out, and nobody's looking. Because there's no vested interest in looking, nutritionfacts.org We need one for animals. But meanwhile, it's you and me. Karen Becker and Ronnie, and that's
Rob Ryan 53:00
yeah, so is so go back to complex like so is would you think of Bupleurum as being like a like a like? I would think of a vegetable being complex. Is it right? Is it a root?
Dr. Steve Marsden 53:19
Yep. Well, Bupleurum is a route. Yep. And Dongway is route Romani is the route and the goose to come. So they're all routes those Scoodle areas a route. So yeah, a lot of, and of course, that's where plants are shoving a lot of the things they want to use in the future, the plant is using these things for the same thing that we're using them for. It's not just like some freaky accidents are about 60% of how your cells operate. Even your innate immune system works from or shares the same molecules that plants use to do those same things. So, we have this shared origin evolutionarily. We all start because of green algae, so we carry some of those plant mechanisms with us; we certainly kick the ball and run with it, but we respond to the same chemical compounds. Because we have a shared physiology and plants are using, for example, salicylic acid to control inflammation in their bodies, just like we're using it to control inflammation in ours, nitric oxide is a central signaling molecule in our body. Nitric oxide is a central signaling molecule in the plant body. So it's a small wonder that plants work. And if you ingest whole herb extracts, you are ticking all these things in the exact proportions you need them to have this physiological role because Nature doesn't manufacture how reserved milligrams of one compound; it manufactures hundreds of combinations in tiny amounts. And those compounds have five different parts. Yep. And so everyone's doing double duty. And that's what you take in; when you have many extracts, you take a network of compounds to pull off particular physiological tasks. And you're saying, I got the exact needs, do that for me. And so that's what that's what is happening. And so when you use a whole food approach, it's the same thing. When you take a whole prey approach, you accept the entire envelope of perfectly adjusted compounds and the right amounts to run your body with. So then you don't need to, as you said, you don't need to know all the science; you eat whole foods, and you're ingesting everything in idealized quantities. And so that's one of the reasons why plants work so well. Herbal medicine was developed as an adjunct; early Chinese medicine that went in your mouth was food. And later on, they said, Hey, these plants seem good at dealing with certain things. So, at first, they would put, and this is still the case in the winter solstice in China, the traditional meal is mutton with Dong Wei, which is in accessories. So that's considered a traditional meal to support your body in the winter solstice, providing the kind of influence you need now. So eventually, they said, Well, why not? Why one plant? Let's do two or three. And then finally, it's like, why don't we separate the plant mix and take that as well? And so that's how herbal medicine evolved in Chinese culture. First, as like sprinkles in your food, and later on, it's like, yeah, if we took these plants, we get a nice concerted physiological effect and no side effects. Let's eat this cluster of plants. And that's, that's why my favorite classical formulas from 2000 years ago, is that's an incredible amount of field testing. Like herbal Chinese, herbal medicine is the most field-tested medical system in history, especially if you're using the stuff that's been around for 2000 years.
Rob Ryan 57:20
Well, it's been, and it's also think about the years. That's interesting, but it's protecting billions of people. Right? Yeah, yeah. I feel comfortable doing something after billions of people have used it.
Dr. Steve Marsden 57:37
Yeah. For example, some of those have a format called a shout-out or rambling ease powder. And on any given day, about 35 million women are taking it. Like it's, there's no drug, unless you're talking about something like Lipitor, where 35 million people are taking something like it's, so it's on that level, in terms of being field tested. And obviously, it's not a single compound. So it's, it's a complex array of combinations. And so that makes it innately safer. You're not forcing a physiological reaction. So Wow.
Dealing With Itching In Your Dog (58:20)
Rob Ryan 58:20
And, one of the things that you mentioned was, the shots and the pills and the different itching remedies that, and look, I get it, if your dogs keeping you up at night, you want to pull your hair out, I've heard a bunch of those stories., it's like, please make it stop.,
Dr. Steve Marsden 58:42
A dog is saying, please make it stop. Yeah, they exist for a reason. The problem is when we over-rely on them, but the nice thing about it is that people say well, we, we can use the two together. And as absolutely, if your dogs are on apoquel or cytopoint. And then when I frequently say is, let's say it's applicable, I'll say, well, give a dose where the itches and entirely gone. But you're comfortable, or the dog is comfortable; you're all comfortable, but it's not gone. And then introduce the herbs. And two weeks later, if the itch is gone, the herbs took care of it. The herbs have gone beyond the drug. Yeah. And so it's safe to start reducing the drug dose. As you reduce the drug dose, the itch level will return. And that's okay. Because you've got something that will eliminate the edge, and you're fixing the problem. It just takes time. It's a bicycle oil, and it needs to wind down. So you take away a little bit of abiquo. You keep going with your Cessorex for a couple of weeks; okay, they're each free on that dose. Now you lower it again and stair-step it down until there are no drugs, and they're just on the herbs. And realistically, there may be a time when they don't need to be on herbs either, but they've got to eat natural fresh food. And they got to be on probiotics. Those are two musts.
Rob Ryan 1:00:08
Yeah. Well, the same thing occurs to me that we're talking about here: people who are putting their dog on this one probiotic pill, Formula powder, forever. That's a huge mistake, also, for many different for different reasons. But, rotating, if you're going to get, you're going to have your dog on probiotics for whatever the reason we, so many reasons we can't get into it. And I'm talking about the synthetic the, and I call them synthetic biologics. Such biologics are manufactured; if I'm not talking about a fermented food you make or one that you buy from us that is akin to something that your dog buried and ate up again, or your dog ate off the street that's rotting, or, frankly, the dirt that your dog's eating that's on the ball that they're playing with. It's a very different thing. It's, it's naturally derived. But then I would caution people to do anything in this if it's a fight because a pharmaceutical paradigm of, this thing will remedy this, what's that word you used? Isolated? I lost the word, but an isolated, something?
Dr. Steve Marsden 1:01:42
Like, the magic bullet? Yeah, like,
Rob Ryan 1:01:45
but it's an isolated component
Dr. Steve Marsden 1:01:49
Yeah, this is just a single compound.
Rob Ryan 1:01:53
thing. That single? Yes. Yeah, yeah. And it's usually something that can be patented and all this other stuff, and then it's proprietary. And that's great. But you need to rotate these things the same way you have to turn dogs' diets; they can't eat the same diet every day. That's a whole other show. All this stuff is just very; we're trying to reach out and, for God's sake, get your dogs out, especially if you live in a condo and a sterile city. Get your dogs out because all these dogs we see live incredible and long lives; guess what? They all live on farms. Right? They all look. They're roaming around and doing what dogs have done for millions of years.
Dr. Steve Marsden 1:02:51
It speaks to that complexity, and we're talking about that that's equivalent to help. If you keep feeding the same mix, day in and day out, for years. That in itself is a system that is becoming progressively less complex. So then, here's a fun fact. Here's a fun fact. So, I'm curious because many animals will have allergies every six months. Now, a spring and a fall. And so the assumption is okay, there's something out there that they're reacting to, of course, now we know it's not just this, there's a significant role that the gut plays. And then you think, okay, and six months later, there's something else, but sometimes it's uncanny that it's every six months. Could there be another explanation? So, our model is that an unfavorable microbiome drives a lot of the cell-mediated immune response. But there's a problem in there. A dog has a shift in the microbiome every six months, which is like, really, what would drive that? So that's precisely what happens. So, the species had been studied for this. And what causes it is the same thing. We have a circadian or an annual rhythm to our circulation. So, in the summertime, you feel much better if you have congestive heart failure. Because your peripheral circulation is better because it's summertime, yeah, in the wintertime, we're all constricted, including your blood supplies, more of a burden on your heart, so you'll struggle. So there's this circulatory wave that goes through our body every year, which the shift is every six months. So when they looked at why this microbial shift is happening deep inside your body, it's because of a circulatory change that the body makes every six months; the intestinal lining is inside. But it's still a body surface. So, it's still outside of the body. It's just a tube inside, but the lining needs good peripheral circulation to function correctly. So, we know that the body pulls the blood supply back once a year, and perfusion could be better. And you'll get a microbial shift in the intestinal tract. And that can predispose to allergies if it creates a leaky gut. And then we have the return of the blood supply. And we have another microbial shift and potentially another allergy. Based on the early research that's been done, it's a circulatory shift in ourselves that produces a change in the microbiome every six months, which is why these allergies are occurring. So rhythmically, not to mention other immune-mediated diseases, such as some dogs getting vestibular syndrome every August, it's because of the circulatory change in the brain, the circulatory state that exists in the brain every August, and it's just suitable for creating CNS inflammation. So much pathology that we see annually is driven by how our blood supply moves. And this is another thing that needs to be discussed in vet school. This was published in the Journal of Nature in 1956. It is a brilliant article. And nobody's as it's astounding, but it explains much. So anyway, I could talk and talk. But as a microbiome aficionado, I thought you might be interested to know this rhythm that occurs in the blood supply and the shift occurs.
Pharmaceuticals Vs. Biotics (1:07:04)
Rob Ryan 1:07:04
This is the first time I've ever heard of that. And it makes complete sense. It also occurs as you're talking; there's no doubt about it, as the pharmaceutical industry has been. This isn't about one of the other; this isn't a binary, pharma bad, natural good, not at all. There are certainly some incredible advances that the pharmaceutical industry has made. But I would also love somebody to do this evaluation; I would submit that when you talked about Lipitor and all that, I would guess that some of the biggest moneymakers are solving solutions that are just complex that people don't want to understand or that doctors don't want to understand. And that addressing it more naturally is entirely possible. It's just that it needs to be more nuanced. And so this, the simplistic view for those customers, is excellent. Let me take this, and we don't have to have this—what we've been discussing? We've been discussing one topic for this, and I'm breaking this up into two parts: itching. And we've talked about it for an hour. Most people don't want an hour-long discussion about their dog's itching. And many people, our customers or your customers, want to do it. They want to understand. And they understand that there is a lot they don't know, and they're willing to learn and make some adjustments. But it is fascinating that there's a whole industry that serves the Yeah, look, I got a lot going on. I don't want to deal with it. So I would like you to write me a script, and away I go, and that's fine. You see, I'm glad that I'm so happy that it exists for those people.
Dr. Steve Marsden 1:09:07
Yeah. Well, it's like people don't want a revolution. They want the easy thing that will take care of their objectives. And so yeah, because people are interested in ease. That's where kibble comes from: people interested in drugs or comfort; that's where drugs come from. Let's find the easiest, fastest thing to give me some palliation, and I roll with that. And it's, and it makes much money. And so, the money creates these businesses' social prominence after a while. You can't unseat them because they're making way too much money. Right. There needs to be more power. So that's okay, however. We don't just. You can step away from that and do your own thing.
There's nothing that says we can solve these problems on our own. And a slow coup is happening, but God knows how long it'll take. But slowly, medicine coops some of the things that work well. M & M Mars bought some natural food company diets. They also purchased kibble, but they're hedging their bets. Right? So, they would have considered something other than buying a raw diet. M&M Mars has been around for a long time; he wouldn't have considered purchasing a raw diet 20 years ago. They thought of buying it now because they could see a movement happening.
Rob Ryan 1:10:38
Yes, they're smart; they're profit-driven. And they've got a model, and, when they're also everybody's getting in gangbusters and probiotics and postbiotics and all this sort of stuff, they're again figuring out how we can hire these scientists and make these things in these massive quantities and at a shallow price point. And, it's proven we can provide, look, look at our look at our paperwork; show it's real. And I could go back and forth. I sometimes feel bad for people doing the wrong thing. And other times, I ask why I feel so bad. It's giving them this: they have free will, and they're seeking out this thing they believe is the correct answer. And it's making them feel good. Great, I should stop worrying about those people. But our customers are curious and research-driven, looking into things and asking many questions. I know you're asking many questions because I'm in that Facebook group.
Dr. Steve Marsden 1:11:54
Yeah. But part of it is cost, too. For example, Cytopoint is costly; you get an injection every month. So, with ease comes a price. There's consumer value in charging for it. So there are different breaking points for people; they are uncomfortable with the side effects they're reading about or seeing in their animal. And some of them may say, I can't afford this; I need something different. So they're additional drivers that bring people to these solutions that we're offering. But the beauty of it is that they save people a fortune, right? Like, we're, it's the value and just doing a handful of fundamental things that are very complex, but they're still simple. And one of them needs to be done anyway, and you have to feed your pet. Right. And Gussy's Gut is not expensive. Cessorex is relatively inexpensive. And yet, they have these sweeping impacts. And so, really, (Gussy's Gut & Cessorex) should be the one that is charging a fortune for
Rob Ryan 1:13:13
I say to people, expensive compared to what, like, what are you comparing this to? So, the US versus a probiotic you can get in a PetSmart, it was expensive. , you're not reaching, you're not competitors, there's no comparison, just completely different. And so, it's your product compared to what? Okay, if you compare it to that shot, yours is cheap. , but how I look at things is, yes, I look at dollars. Still, I was looking at a more long-term what's happening to my dog for a long time, what the healthspan costs could be, what is happening overall to the immune system, long term, what is happening to cash, all these complex things that nobody understands, we still don't understand. , we're, there's so much we don't realize about everything about, we just were told, I don't know what was this a few months ago, that we are going to talk about the human health world. Doctors just came out and said, what? We completely misunderstood metabolism. It doesn't work the way we thought it did. That was just in 2023. Like, what sorry, way? What's up? Oh, you're cutting out on me. I don't know why
Dr. Steve Marsden 1:14:56
Things are breaking. So, things are breaking down. So doctors are looking long.
Rob Ryan 1:15:03
Oh, metabolism—the mechanism of metabolism. So, they just discovered it. So it's exciting, with humility and understanding, that we may not know everything about this. And what could be the unintended consequences of taking this thing? And so anyway, I appreciate it. Look, folks, this was me; I contacted Dr. Marsden about this product. I'm certainly promoting this product, but I'm not. I should say the right word: I'm endorsing this product but not promoting it. And I'm not. There needs to be a financial incentive for me to do this. I have nothing to say to Dr. Marsden about this. I know that right now, we're in June. And I wanted to get this information out and have a deeper discussion about aging because people lose their minds. And I understand why, when the season comes around, dogs are just taking a few steps and itching, taking a few steps and itching, and keeping them up at night. This show was valuable to people watching and gave them a better understanding that it's complex. And herbal is the way to go for your dog in complex solutions, both food and herbs. So, thank you, Dr. Marsden.
Dr. Steve Marsden 1:16:32
Thank you. I appreciate I appreciate the opportunity.
Rob Ryan 1:16:36
We'll probably cut this into two parts, and I'll send you the details. Thanks, everybody, for watching. Have a great day.