How Did You Become A Functional Lab Scientist? (1:13)
- Betsy's Journey: Finding Her Path in Australia
- Inside the Lab: Tailored Testing for Pets' Well-being
- What Sets Our Lab Testing Apart: A Global Comparison
- Deep Dive into the World of Gut Health
- Physiologic Function: The Pivotal Role in Microbiome Balance
- Comparing Microbiomes: Humans vs. Animals
Bacteria In The Gut (9:23)
- H. Pylori and Its Intricate Relationship with Gut Health
- Understanding the Significance of H. Pylori in the Digestive System
The Two Camps Of Microbiome Testing (11:21)
- The Intriguing Nature of Shared Biomes
- Diving into the Two Main Approaches to Microbiome Testing
- Gaps in Training: Gastroenterologists and IBD Test Proficiency
- IBD vs. IBS: Unraveling the Key Differences
How Likely Is A Vet To Take Action On A Reading? (14:56)
- Assessing the Propensity of Vets to Act
- Unasked Questions: What Vets Often Overlook?
- The Gut-Boosting Benefits of Polyphenols and Fiber
- Distinct Metabolomic Signatures: Indicators of Various Diseases
The Hierarchy Of Phytochemicals In Nutrient Dense Food (20:29)
- Hierarchy of Phytochemicals and Amino Acids in Nutrient-rich Foods
- Measuring Gut Health: Key Diversity Indexes for Gut Flora
- Spotlight on Bacteria: Producers of Butyrate and Acetate
- Underrepresented Bacteria: Those in Scarce Supply Within the Gut
Probiotics And The Intestinal Lining (24:35)
- Adaptive Challenges for Humans and Their Pets
- Exploring Probiotics: The Landscape of the Gut Ecosystem
- Deciphering Zonulin and Anti-Gliadin IgA: Key Indicators of Gluten Sensitivity
- The Significance of the Anti-Gilead Impact Test
- Glyphosate's Role in Triggering Leaky Gut Syndrome
- The Crucial Role of Tight Junctions in Mammals and Humans
The Gut Is Like A Customs And Immigration Service (31:40)
- Understanding the Gut: A Parallel to Customs and Immigration Services
- Unraveling the Benefits of Post-Biotics in Fermented Food
- Tackling Gut Health: A Comprehensive Approach
- Delving into the Second Test: Digestion and Detox Dynamics
Inflammatory Markers Of Intestinal Inflammation (37:02)
- Comparing Pancreatic Function: Dogs versus Humans
- The Link Between Elevated Beta-Glucuronidation and Gut Flora
- How Inflammatory Markers, Calprotectin, and Secretory IgA Impact Immunity
- Immune System: The Body's Primary Defensive Line
- Concerns with Low Fund Globulin-A Levels in Newborn Puppies
- Vitamin A's Crucial Role in Mucous Membrane Wellness
The Benefits Of Microbiome Testing For Vets (44:00)
- Vets Turn to This Service for Deep Insights into Pet Microbiomes
- Endorsed by Dr. Redmond: Why This Product Stands Out
- The Role of Fermented Foods in Tracking Gut Health Progress
Nutrients And Gut Health (49:25)
- Key Nutrients Essential for Optimal Gut Health
- The Connection Between Secondhand Smoke and Leaky Gut Issues
- The Temporary Nature of Probiotics in the Digestive System
- Understanding Elevated Beta-Glucuronic Levels
- How Antibiotics and Botanicals Impact Beneficial Bacteria
- The Comprehensive 4-5 Protocol for Balancing Gut Bacteria
Pet Gut Health: Digestive Wellness Guide (57:52)
- Probiotics vs. Antibiotics: Best Practices for Dogs and Cats
- Why Puppies and Kittens Thrive More with Proper Care?
- How Nutrients Directly Impact Pet Gut Health?
- Key Reasons to Nourish Your Pet's Digestive System
WHERE TO FIND INNOVATIVE PET LAB (1:02:04)
- Connect with Dr. Redman on social media
- Innovative Pet Lab on Facebook and Instagram
Rob Ryan 00:01
Hey, everybody. Good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening; wherever you are in the world, we're excited to bring this show with you today about microbiome testing. So, let's get right to it. I'll bring on my partner, Dr. Ian Billinghurst.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 00:20
Good morning, Rob, to scratching my eyes and waking up. Good morning.
Rob Ryan 00:24
Yes, it is morning for you.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 00:26
Indeed.
Rob Ryan 00:28
we're thrilled to discuss how you can figure out what's going on in your dog's gut and in their microbiome. We've got excellent scientists that are on with us. So should we get to it?
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 00:45
Absolutely. Because this is groundbreaking stuff. We're not just looking at bacteria but more in-depth things; we will have that explained to us.
Rob Ryan 00:57
That's right. That's right. So, without any further ado, please welcome Dr. Betsy Redmond, the co-founder and chief science officer of Innovative Pet Labs. Hi, Doctor, how are you?
How Did You Become A Functional Lab Scientist? (1:13)
Dr. Betsy Redmond 01:13
I'm good. How are you doing?
Rob Ryan 01:16
We're great.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 01:17
We're doing well in disparate parts of the world.
Dr. Betsy Redmond 01:20
Yeah, it's your morning. I'm about evening.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 01:25
So what happens when the globe?
Rob Ryan 01:29
I have been looking forward to this all day to day. So, shall we get into this? Let's, let's actually, and before I get into my questions that I'm dying to get to, let's take a quick step back. And let's get into how did you end up here? Yeah, yeah,
Dr. Betsy Redmond 01:47
same question. Everybody asks themselves? Yeah, I am. I went to school for nutrition. I got a Master's at Emory and a Ph.D. at the University of Georgia. And then, I started working in functional labs for people. I worked in a small metal metrics company that did functional testing, and somebody else bought it out. And so when I started there, I thought this can't be true. Because I have, I worked at a research institution and got a doctorate there. I have yet to hear of this stuff. But then I researched it. And it was true. So, I worked in human labs for 15 years. And then I moved, like, the people I worked with, we were thinking we wanted to test our pets. So we looked around, and nobody did what we did in people for pets. So we decided to start that ourselves.
Rob Ryan 02:46
That's great. So you were already doing it for people these sorts of tests.
Dr. Betsy Redmond 02:51
Right, right. We Yeah, and when you do lab testing for people, there's CLIA, and you must follow many regulations. There are HIPAA regulations. And the clip is how the lab works. So, when we came to the pet world, we were like, essentially, you could do what you want, but we treat it just like a CLIA-certified lab. So we took all those same practices and just moved them over. A little more relaxed on the HIPAA so we can talk about somebody's dog results to the person. Not.
Rob Ryan 03:26
Right, right. Well, I'll just quickly jump.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 03:29
in here. I've just observed. And I'm a retired veterinarian, so I'm not in daily practice. And I'm in Australia, and things are a little different. But they're becoming more and more American, as they have been for some time. However, I would like to ask you that a lot of this testing I see is done looking at bacterial species, but you're not doing that; you're looking at more functional tests.
Dr. Betsy Redmond 03:54
Correct?
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 03:55
Can you explain the difference between what you are doing? And what most other labs around the world are doing?
Dr. Betsy Redmond 04:06
That's probably one of our number one questions. How are you different from looking at the microbiome when looking at the gut bacteria? What microbiome is the bacteria, the viruses, the archaea, like everything in the gut? That's, that's, that's, I want to say that's alive, but if your guts are looking right now, you're just looking at the bacteria.
Dr. Betsy Redmond 04:31
When you look at the microbiome, you're usually just looking at the different bacteria, either individual or species, but with that within the gut, we're looking at more. Hence, the gut is like the gut lining, and then there's the mucous lining, then there's the poop where the bacteria lives, and there's also bacteria within the lining, but you're not looking at that. So you can look at the gut bacteria, and it can tell you what bacteria are there, and some are considered good, and some are considered harmful. But you're just making associations; what we're doing is looking at the actual activity like, is there inflammation? Like, is there immune activity? How's digestion going? Stuff like how healthy the gut mucosa, the gut lining, and all those. So we look at different parts we have inflammation and immunity. We look at intestinal permeability and digestion detox.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 05:30
You're looking at whether we have a healthy gut and microbiome. And if they're working together to reduce overall health, particularly in aspects like immunology, immunity, digestion, the health of the bowel wall, and so on. From what I'm hearing, this is a comprehensive review of gut health.
Dr. Betsy Redmond 05:55
Yeah, it is; you can think it's an excellent place to start because all this stuff is good, like everything you're doing good. And all the physiologic functions that we're looking at are good. Your microbiome, your whole microbiota, is probably good.
Rob Ryan 06:15
so then you don't have to go down the rabbit hole of going deeper. If all these checkouts are functional and in the green, doing well, you likely don't have to look in that direction. You can look at some other suggestions. Is that what I'm hearing?
Dr. Betsy Redmond 06:38
Yeah, there's more like, if you look at a certain gut bacteria, a particular pattern may be associated with increased inflammation. But why not just look to see if you have gut inflammation?
Rob Ryan 06:53
Gotcha. Okay.
Dr. Betsy Redmond 06:55
in the human world, 15-20 years ago, when we started doing testing of the microbiome with PCR and stuff, we always did both. You look at the gut bacteria, and then you look at the activity. But we started with the physiologic function part and a pet test because, in the human world, we get the most information for what to do next when the bacteria is always interesting, but this tells me what to do next. Do I need to support the lining? Do I need to support digestion? Immunity? So it's, it's to, to us, it was better to tell you what to do. Kind of your next steps.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 07:38
Was it? Was there a high correlation between what you were discovering in your tests? And the makeup of the microbiome? Or did the microbiome vary? And if it did, what was causing that variation? Was it a different season? Or was it a difference in location? The difference in diet? Do you have to expand on that?
Dr. Betsy Redmond 08:04
We still need to do the microbiome with our testing, like looking at humans at this stage. So many factors can play into that some have more variability. So, we look at, like, Are they good? What's the ratio of commensal to opportunistic bacteria? But some of that, like, if you have if a human has H. pylori, which you can see in the stool, that's going to lower, it's going to make the stomach more alkaline. So that's going to impair your whole digestive cascade. So, you might have better digestion and absorption in that respect. But if you get rid of that, it's better. So it's hard to say which; first, certain ones, like Clostridium markers, Rose bacteria, and E. coli bacterium, are two bacteria that people consider good. And they give off a lot of short-chain fatty acids, suck up oxygen, and keep it more of a low-oxygen environment, which supports the bacteria you want. But you have to feed them with a lot of polyphenols and fibers.
Bacteria In The Gut (9:23)
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 09:23
Okay. And it would be best if you still made those connections for animals.
Dr. Betsy Redmond 09:30
So we still need to do the research for that. These markers were looking at a lot of them. We knew they would work in animals because a lot of them had been studied originally in animals; they have been done in mice, and then they moved up and looked at rabbits and dogs, and so, unfortunately, a lot of the research was already done in animals.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 09:56
And we'll just pop down one tiny rabbit hole, and I will hand over on No, I'm all for the revenue. You mentioned H. Pylori and Helicobacter pylori as a cause of apparent ulcers in humans in the stomach and so on. But there is some indication that they cause problems, and there may be a sort of a baton ball relationship between humans and companion animals. Have you come across that particular bacteria? And I know you're not looking but incidentally, in the poop of any animals at this stage? Yeah, we have yet to look at people. We're looking at PCR. So
Dr. Betsy Redmond 10:37
we probe to a specific load.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 10:41
Okay.
Dr. Betsy Redmond 10:42
Yeah,
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 10:43
we call it just because I often feel that I stomach it. Sometimes, if we clear up the ulcers in humans, they disappear from the gut problems and the animals because they very closely share a microbiome. And it may be that they h pylori is not a strong candidate for living in the animal's stomach. But if enough of it comes in, it causes a problem and disappears if the if is continually being fed. But I want to get out of that rabbit hole. Rob, you must have a question.
The Two Camps Of Microbiome Testing (11:21)
Rob Ryan 11:21
No, it's fascinating. I mean, as somebody who lets my dog sleep with me, and he's, I'm with them all the time. And sharing a biome is very interesting to me. So, that was a rabbit hole. I was, I was, I was falling pretty quickly. Let me tell you what I think about tests involving the microbiome; let's say they affect the microbiome. Please tell me if I need to correct this. There are two camps: consumer tests that you can get directly, you can purchase now, and you can identify specific strains of bacteria your dog hasn't had or doesn't have. And then, you can also go the route of these functional tests. Is that the two camps that exist?
Dr. Betsy Redmond 12:24
Yeah.
Rob Ryan 12:25
Okay. So what I'm wondering is what this is, is an amazingly complex topic, the microbiome, and I'm trying to figure out, are there enough? Do we know if enough vets know how to take a test identifying species and then know what to do with it? Or are they trained in specific species of gut flora? And all are?
Dr. Betsy Redmond 13:03
Well, I would have; I don't know how fully trained. I mean, most look, both types of tests that aren't used to, they're not going to necessarily learn in school, just like medical doctors, like, you would think that gastroenterologist would be all over these tests, but that's not what they know. They're learning how to find somebody with IBD who might need surgery, those kinds of things. Suppose you have just some upset stomach, irritable bowel disease, or syndrome instead of inflammatory bowel disease, which is severe. In that case, you meet some criteria: upset stomach or constipation, diarrhea; most gastroenterologists can't help people with that. So, the same with that is not a standard part of the protocol. It's still in research. I mean, there are schools still researching this, and the thing about science, at least, textbooks that people might use in school, that's like ten years from when things get discovered before they get put into a book or talk to a class because it has to be all packaged up and be part of care. So it's not that the markers aren't good; they just haven't been all packaged up and put in there.
Rob Ryan 14:26
Well, let's focus specifically on the tests you do at your company. So I'm a consumer; I get these tests done. I've got a reading here, and I'm sure you have some recommendations. But I want to bring it to my vet; how likely can a vet use that information and take action on it? Or, some course of action, some treatment options?
How Likely Is A Vet To Take Action On A Reading? (14:56)
Dr. Betsy Redmond 14:56
If you do it and you're treating your dog as well as it can be treated, it sounds like it since it's in bed with you. No expense spared. So, I'm not saying my dog isn't. But for most people taking care of their dog, we find, usually, it's just confirmation that you're taking care of your dog. And things look great. Suppose something's out of range. Most of the time, and this is true with people too, and if it's just slightly out of range or a little, you can put it back in by changing by supporting the microbiome, and the gut mucosa and things. So you don't necessarily have to take it to your vet if you do take it to your vet. If values are incredibly high, and your dog or cat has many symptoms, you need to go to your vet; it's probably something you need to investigate further. So a vet would know, they may not be familiar with it. So there's always understanding what something is and then getting clinically comfortable treating an animal with it. So they wouldn't say that they wouldn't. No, and we also have a vet guide that's a complete reference. So they could see that we didn't just make stuff up. This is what we pulled from the literature. So, I Yeah, and that's why the test is printable, and you can print it out and take it to your vet. And then so you can discuss it, it's also, we're hoping people will introduce their vets to these things.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 16:41
It's just this thing to talk about that. Vets refrain from speaking to ask questions at this level. That's number one. The whole profession does not ask questions. All it does is say, How can I identify something? And then how can I treat it with drugs and surgery? There is an arm, of course, started by Hills saying, Well, can we treat some of these things with diet? And then there's a prescription diet? So, the first thing a vet would think about due to their training would be whether a prescription diet fits the bill for this problem. And whether there is or isn't? I don't know. But that was where they might start. Do you have any experience with that sort of thing with which
Dr. Betsy Redmond 17:32
Yeah, I think that that that is, and we get a range of people who test it out, do our tests, and some use kibble, and some are entirely raw. So, a lot of times, it's moving on from where you are and not necessarily going from kibble to altogether natural. So diets are probably the best bet. I think some of the prescription diets might be better for certain specifics like liver disease or things that have been diagnosed; sometimes you need to up the goodness of the diet, not necessarily straight-up prescription, but I think that would lay the foundation for them to figure out how to address it. It's not a foreign concept.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 18:19
No, that's right.
Rob Ryan 18:22
Dr. Redmond, so you, you use my two big favorite words of mine. Dr. Billinghurst and I spend a lot of energy and time on the polyphenols and fiber in Gussy's Gut. It's two things. It's Gus, he's got his very abundant in. Please tell us more about why polyphenols and fiber might benefit the gut.
Dr. Betsy Redmond 18:49
Yeah, fiber feeds the gut bacteria. And you want to keep them happy. And people are really all male mammals, people, and dogs. If you can keep your gut bacteria happy, you will grow the correct type of bacteria. And like I said, they'll give off short-chain fatty acids, mostly butyrate. And that helps to support the environment. So it's the type of environment they want. Polyphenols are generally compounds, like from those colored foods; bacteria will take those and make compounds. So indeed, like in metabolomics research where they're looking, it's an arm of study where they look at all the metabolites a being has. There are more in pets than people; they're trying to find metabolomic signatures for different diseases. But one area they look at is compounds given off by gut bacteria. So if gut bacteria go after protein, they'll give up certain combinations. If they go after polyphenols, they tend to give off better variety. Generally, by the time you get to the distal part of the gut, you will want more of that fiber; everything else is fats and proteins that have been absorbed. So, they give off suitable compounds. So it's not; they support the gut bacteria and the fiber and can make stuff out of it. And then the same with the polyphenols; they can make suitable compounds, or if you feed it all bad stuff, they can make detrimental compounds.
The Hierarchy Of Phytochemicals In Nutrient Dense Food (20:29)
Rob Ryan 20:29
Wow. On that note, is there a hierarchy when considering phytochemicals, amino acids, and all these different things in nutrient-dense food? Is there a hierarchy you can think of that the gut bacteria feeds off of? And can then, what would the word be upcycled? Into?
Dr. Betsy Redmond 20:53
Yeah, I haven't heard upcycled. But that makes sense. Yeah. Fibers probably got more of a solid footing and polyphenols in with that, but they work together. And so, sometimes, introducing polyphenols is more accessible than introducing fibers. So they can work together, but another aspect of that for mammals, people, and dogs is variety like there are not just fibers, not one thing, threads, different types of fiber. So you're going to support different types of bacteria. So a variety can kind of, and that's what you want, you want diversity, there's whole, like gut diversity indexes that tell you what's the diversity of your gut bacteria because you want it there. But it's not just a whole bunch; you wouldn't want a whole bunch of just one type of bacteria because they're all doing different things. So you want that variety of activity.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 21:52
Wow. So when you say variety, we'll get technical. Here, we have five clubs, which are groups of bacteria, and then species, which are individuals and probably got varieties within species, but say the ones that digest fiber, turning them into short-chain fatty acids, such as butyrate. Is that a phylum situation? Or is it a wide variety from
Dr. Betsy Redmond 22:18
a wide variety? So, within the phylum, you would have different bacteria that can do those functions? Some will make butyrate and consume butyrate, some make acetate and drink, butyrate it, so there's, within those, so yeah, they're all? There may not be any just like this phylum has the ones that do this.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 22:42
say it's a crossfire. It's not just one. Okay, so where are they coming from? So if people wanted to have a dog, and they're going to feed a lot of bacteria, or sorry, a lot of fiber that can be digested by acting as a prebiotic? Where are the bacteria coming from? Do they have to add them in? Or are they present in the food if it has not been cooked or destroyed by eating? What's the situation here?
Dr. Betsy Redmond 23:10
They're generally within the gut and may be in a meager supply. I wouldn't rule it out. Indeed, there's some on the food, like sometimes with DNA testing, you want to ensure you're not getting something dead. And that didn't get broken down by DNA aces or something. But you know what? That's a good question. It's like fruit flies; where did they come? Are they on your banana? So, there are a lot of bacteria that live within the gut lining—so, supporting that.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 23:46
What I'm asking then is, it a situation where if we put in the right prebiotic, then we're going to wish a food for specific bacteria, that we're going to see those bacteria increase in numbers, and therefore increase the health of the gut? Is that correct?
Dr. Betsy Redmond 24:03
Yeah, I mean, getting more fiber and getting a variety of fiber, it's going to help bring up all the gut bacteria, and you don't, you and your dog don't have to do anything; it'll just do it on its own.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 24:15
So that's a message. That's a strong message. That's a powerful and good message: to have to feed the fiber, and you're going to be providing the right bacteria, which may be in meager numbers, but they will quietly increase. So that's like an adaptive situation.
Probiotics And The Intestinal Lining (24:35)
Dr. Betsy Redmond 24:35
Yeah, it's like you're saying with people and pets, you can't just suddenly, like, I want to be on a high fiber diet and start it one day. If you start with your dog, you need to start gradually and make sure some dogs can handle that, like we're changing this, okay? And for some dogs, you need to change slowly, and that's the same with people because you're going to disrupt the balance of thanks. Okay,
Rob Ryan 25:02
that's interesting. Do you think so? I want to know more about this. Can we also think about this idea of probiotics regarding the gut terrain? And if you're providing prebiotics, are you helping with the landscape? I mean, I know one of your tests looks at the intestinal lining, so am I thinking of it the right way.
Dr. Betsy Redmond 25:42
or it's going to be a combination, like, if you start slowly increasing fibers and polyphenols, your guts will get healthier. But if you have an intestinal lining, that's not that that's permeable; eventually, sometimes, just changing over to a healthy diet will help get everything back in order. But sometimes you must do it the other way, too; you must help build the lining. So it is the crop off, so I'm not going to say just eating better and feeding your dog better is automatically going to solve these issues; you may need to provide some supplemental things or a little further.
Rob Ryan 26:26
Right. Well, so one of your tests specifically looks at talking to me about the test that looks at leaky gut and what it's looking for and what it may mean. Not every dog has a leaky gut, but it is widespread. Is it looking more at your intestinal lining and seeing if you have permeability?
Dr. Betsy Redmond 26:47
Yeah, leaky gut is the same as intestinal permeability; leaky gut is just the slang term we used. Okay. So yeah, we're looking at Zonulin. And then we look at anti-Gliadin IGA. And so Zonulin is like gut fills, which are supposed to be tightly together. It's not impermeable but significantly regulated, so the immune system is involved. Inside your gut, inside your dog's gut, is still technically outside the body. So if you'll let it in and absorb it, you'll check it out. So, many things stick up in the gut lining and help us sense what's happening.
You can come through, and they'll let you in. But those cells separate slightly if certain things happen and the gut lining isn't so tight. Things can get in, larger proteins can come in, and then you can have an immune reaction to that. So that builds on itself; it can be from inflammation and lead to inflammation. It's often associated with food sensitivities because it can cause significant proteins to come in, and then you react to it. We also look at anti-Gliadin IGA in that test to see if somebody's having an immune reaction to gluten. So, sometimes, pull that out while you're healing the gut. We're not saying they have a gluten allergy or a wheat allergy. We're not saying they have celiac disease; that's not what the test does. Are you mounting an immune response to gluten, which can make you want to pull it out while you're healing the gut? You don't want to have this immune response because that's hard.
Rob Ryan 28:39
Right? And could we also? I'm sorry, I can't say that glean.
Dr. Betsy Redmond 28:44
Anti-Gilead, or the Gilead effect, is like what you look at within gluten.
Rob Ryan 28:53
that could show us the reaction to glyphosate.
Dr. Betsy Redmond 29:02
No, it's very targeted at Gliadin. But glyphosate has indeed been associated with leaky guts.
Rob Ryan 29:11
Right. Okay. So let me go back then, real quick. Sorry, Dr. B, I'm going to go down one more, one little rabbit hole. So, you mentioned the tightness of the gut. So that's one thing we hear a lot about more and more as tight junctions of the gut. Can you tell us just one more time, and in another way, why is that so important to the health of both mammals and us?
Dr. Betsy Redmond 29:41
Well, we are mammals, but I mean,
Rob Ryan 29:44
other mammals, sorry.
Dr. Betsy Redmond 29:46
So yeah, I am accused by my partner of being an inverted invertebrate sometimes, but, Oh, no. But so you won't like the tight junctions? Just hold the filth together; it's like a fence post. And then, like, they're hooked together, one after the other. And so things can come through, but your gut wants control, your immune system wants control, it wants it done orderly, so we can, like, let me check this out, okay, we can open this, and you can come in if things start, like, they're not so tight. So tight junctions hold them together, and when they're gone, like when they move apart, you will see increased levels of Zonulin. Now, you're going to get increased levels of Zonulin. It's not like it's zero or a number. So you can have some Zonulin. And you'll have some because they open and close these things; it's permeable. Otherwise, that wouldn't be of any use. So, when you get elevated levels of Zonulin, it is associated with increased permeability. And there's a leaky gut syndrome that has some questionable. So, not everybody's down with calling it a syndrome, but certainly, it's known that guts can become permeable.
Rob Ryan 31:09
Okay, so permeability, the tight junctions, then cable. Yeah, they get
Dr. Betsy Redmond 31:17
together, so.
Rob Ryan 31:20
So, would it be fair to say they keep the outside out? So, allergens, toxins, things that the immune system doesn't want to let in? It keeps them out?
Dr. Betsy Redmond 31:35
It's part of the whole system.
The Gut Is Like A Customs And Immigration Service (31:40)
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 31:40
sitting here thinking, When I've gone to America, I've gone through customs and immigration. And that's a very tight border. The gut is like the Customs and Immigration Service that keeps America safe. From all the things it doesn't want. And it doesn't let things out; it doesn't want to go out either. I guess. That's one way of looking at it, I suspect.
Dr. Betsy Redmond 32:04
Yeah. So yeah, it's a way to monitor and keep things out. And if it starts not to be as orderly and starts to separate, then you lose the ability to take care of those things.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 32:19
It's the customs officer who goes for a break and doesn't.
Dr. Betsy Redmond 32:24
And if they all went on break, it would be:
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 32:26
We're in big trouble.
Rob Ryan 32:30
Yeah, well, that's very interesting.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 32:33
I've got another thought here. If I could jump in another little tiny bit of a rabbit hole because this is full of rabbit holes, I suspect You mentioned Dr. Redmond early on about different bacteria in the large bowel digesting fiber; some were making butyrate. And some were making acetate. And the people who made the butter ate their product, perhaps consumed by the acetate producers. So there was this kind of, and I'll feed you if you provide me with a situation. But what we're talking about are postbiotics. So, in fermented food, can we assume that the post-biotics are things produced by bacteria, feeding the gut lining and gut bacteria? Is that correct?
Dr. Betsy Redmond 33:30
Yeah, without doing any research, I'm going to say yes. For 500. Yes. Yeah, because you're getting stuff. They already fermented it, and then there are bacteria in there.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 33:44
Okay. So that's part of the value of fermented food: post-biotics. So it's not only that; it's not only the prebiotics; it's not even the microbiome; it's also the post-biotics that are valuable.
Dr. Betsy Redmond 34:00
Right, right. Yeah. Potentially valuable.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 34:03
Anyway, that's what we're that's what we are certainly hoping when we produce gas, he's got.
Dr. Betsy Redmond 34:13
Plenty of evidence shows that fermented foods, fibers, poly, and others provide good health.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 34:22
So it's a multifaceted attack with prebiotics, microbiome, and probiotics? And all those chemicals we have minimal knowledge of at this stage—all those healthy chemicals?
Dr. Betsy Redmond 34:39
Right, right. Yeah. I mean, the more you learn, the more you learn; you don't know.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 34:45
Absolutely. And so your tests are looking at the result of many of those things. And you're looking, and you're looking for particular markers to say, well, here's my immunity. Down as my gut leaky and so on as my digestion port.
Dr. Betsy Redmond 35:06
Right. Yeah.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 35:09
We have solutions. They're an outline of the possible solutions following a test that shows a problem, which is excellent for pointing people in the direction they should go.
Dr. Betsy Redmond 35:27
Right, right. Yeah. It is so, changing diet and getting healthy, getting a topper, doing all this stuff. It will be good for every dog, but more targeting things where there's a concern can. It's an added benefit to that, to address stuff.
Rob Ryan 35:50
So, Dr. Redman, let's go into the test we discussed concerning leaky gut intestinal lining. What is one of the three? That's the second one that I'm covering? The digestion and detox? How are those related? And what are you looking at? To determine those? Those two measurements? Are those two? Yep.
Dr. Betsy Redmond 36:15
So yeah, for digestion, we're looking at a lactase one. So that is, the pancreas is your mammal organ; it will secrete digestive enzymes. So, stuff breaks down foods, releasing them into the intestines. One of the enzymes that is released is lactase, which is a proteolytic enzyme. It's an enzyme that breaks down protein. And so it also likes to secrete things like lipase or different things, but the elastase one is pretty stable. So it stays and doesn't get digested as quickly itself; like some of those enzymes, there are DNA aces that break things down. So, a lactase enzyme can tell you how well things are functioning.
Inflammatory Markers Of Intestinal Inflammation (37:02)
Dr. Betsy Redmond 37:02
In dogs, generally, it will always be high; they'll have good pancreatic function. And if it's low, it's more of a concern. And people, and eventually, we can find this out in dogs, but we don't know that, with people, sometimes they have just inadequate pancreatic function, and they can support it with digestive enzymes and things. And dogs tend to have an excellent digestive process, or it's shallow. And then we'd say that if you have a very low lactase and your dog has diarrhea, weight loss, or anything else, you must take that to your vet; that's a more severe condition. But so we look at elastase for just overall pancreatic function. And the other marker we look at is another enzyme called beta-glucuronidation. So, it does some tasks for us. And so our gut makes it; your dog's gut makes it. And so you make it because you need to use it. But gut bacteria also cause it. So if it gets to be high, it may probably have more to do with, like, your not death; generally, your dog naturally makes it; it's the gut bacteria that is perhaps imbalanced and making more of this. So we can identify that you may have imbalanced gut bacteria. The problem with elevated beta glucuronidation, besides just telling you, Hey, the gut bacteria may be elevated, is that it almost says, I'll say this two ways. When things go wrong, toxins or hormones undergo detoxification, and the body will just put handcuffs on them and send them out. So, there's a process called glucuronidation, which is an internal antioxidant-like detox mechanism. So it'll send it out. So it's supposed to go out, but beta glucuronidation is like, Hey, I liked those handcuffs. And it'll take it like it wants a glucuronide molecule, pulling it off the toxin or the hormone that's already been packaged up to be sent out. But then that toxin or hormone is free to recirculate. So it can get reabsorbed. Then, it can identify if your dog has exposure to toxins, like running in the neighbor's yard and spraying things. They have this high beta-glucuronidation from this impaired gut-back dysbiosis of the gut bacteria that could concentrate those toxins more. So that's why it has to be folded and looked at. Wow.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 39:44
Well, indeed.
Rob Ryan 39:48
It's heavy stuff. Okay. So, the third test looks at inflammatory markers and immunity, which are interrelated. So, please walk us through how you look at those two things.
Dr. Betsy Redmond 40:02
We look at calprotectant, a marker of intestinal inflammation; it's technically neutrophil, which is white blood cells and neutrophil infiltration into the gut lining. And it's identifying if there is inflammation and the level of inflammation. So, you can look at many of these markers in blood, fecal, or different things. But this is best looked at in stool like you're looking at fecal. Calprotectin can identify there is inflammation and what degree it is, and it can also be used to follow treatment because you can bring that. We see it in pets and people providing anti-inflammatories; treating the gut can help bring calprotectin down. So, the other marker we look at is secretory IgA. And so, in that gut lining scenario, the first line of defense and the immune system on the gut lining are immunoglobulin A or IGA. So many are on mucosal surfaces so that they will be elevated. If you know your pet has parasites or pathogens, sometimes with food sensitivities, It can also be impaired if there's a leaky gut because it works at the gut lining. So, looking at those two together can complement each other and help with the leaky gut. If I had to start with any test, I would probably start with inflammation and immunity. To know, like, okay, there's no inflammation. So you have
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 41:39
Fund globulin A is very low.
Dr. Betsy Redmond 41:43
We have. Yeah, it's generally low, like in young puppies, and you can follow it to see its maturity.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 41:54
But it's illogical. That's just physiological.
Dr. Betsy Redmond 41:57
physiological, but certainly, in people, we see it. And sometimes there needs to be more research on pets to see stuff like in people; you'll see it, but sometimes it's shallow. And they're not a little kid or a puppy that it has to do with, like, you may have had a chronic, there may have been a chronic condition, and the immune system is just almost worn out. Generally, we're seeing high, but more immune support is needed. So we have a marker for very low; it's shallow. So it's going to be quiet. But still, if it is that low, you'll want to look at it for a little more significant support, not necessarily a warning, like something's here, more like this. I am worn out from whatever's been here.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 42:53
What comes to my mind now is vitamin A, which is very important for immunity or mucous membrane health. Have you ever looked at various specifics? For something like that, it could be immunoglobulin A or general mucous membrane health.
Dr. Betsy Redmond 43:16
Yeah. We haven't looked for that specifically. But yeah, so that could be that, that's something that certainly people look to provide to ensure they get good vitamin A?
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 43:30
Yeah, that's just one of the things that immediately comes to mind when you talk about mucous membranes and health and surface immunoglobulins, like IGA. Anyway, I just threw that in for what it wasn't worth.
Rob Ryan 43:44
That was precisely the question. I was going to tee up on Dr. B, which is why there must be a series of tests; this can lead a vet to tee off and look at different levels and other markers. Right.
The Benefits Of Microbiome Testing For Vets (44:01)
Dr. Betsy Redmond 44:01
Yeah, you can use our testing for identifying and following treatment, or if it's high, it may say, Hey, you didn't realize that this inflammation was so high; you should do a scope of some type. This could be serious, so it can also identify that.
Rob Ryan 44:21
Wow, so it can. Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 44:24
Are vets sending stool samples to you, the general public, or both? We do both. We do both. So many vets are starting to use your service.
Dr. Betsy Redmond 44:36
Yeah, yeah, we have one that's doing it. And then we have people send it indirectly.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 44:41
Well, that's great because that means the vets are learning about the microbiome, so you're performing a brilliant function out there, helping to train vets in this area.
Dr. Betsy Redmond 44:53
Hopefully, yeah. I like it.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 44:57
It's brilliant because it's An area we lack.
Dr. Betsy Redmond 45:04
Too bad because we've known about the gut for so long. Well,
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 45:09
Yes, I'm hearing that in humans, you've worked in this area for a long time. And yet, even though we're supposed to have this one medical approach, that is only working in some areas.
Dr. Betsy Redmond 45:21
I did my master's thesis on vitamin D and gut health. And that was in 1989 that I graduated. So it's been going on all.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 45:37
along with discovering the relationship between raw food and health.
Dr. Betsy Redmond 45:42
Yeah, it takes time. And it seems funny that it has to all take so long when it seems so obvious.
Rob Ryan 45:49
Yeah, it does. Yeah. When things are, yeah, you don't realize why you didn't know them.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 46:01
You realize you didn't know them, but you weren't taking any notice.
Rob Ryan 46:05
Now? Yeah, yeah. So what I'm wondering, going through this, is, this would be great for our customers. Because one of the things I'd like is our customers to be able to do a before and after using our product guys, he's got. And so what I'm wondering, Dr. Redmond, is what would you recommend for people? What if our customers were to do a test? How would you recommend what would you recommend they purchase in terms of your tests? And what would you have them look for? Could fermented foods like ours help? They could stick it to monitor changes and improvements.
Dr. Betsy Redmond 46:50
Ideally, you'd get somebody who wasn't paying attention to diet so seriously tested and then started using because toppers are the easiest way to get started. You can add some stuff to the food, and it helps with the transition. But yeah, it has all the components: it can help the immune system, it can help decrease inflammation, it can help build a microbiome, and be postbiotic. So, tamping down inflammation helps with digestion. So, all that stuff has nutrients in it because nutrient insufficiency is one of the primary symptoms of inflammation. So it does all wind on itself. We do have like, so for people listening, if they want to use the code, GFI, get 30. They can get 30% off.
Rob Ryan 47:55
Oh, great. Well, let me get into that, so it's probably Gussy.
Dr. Betsy Redmond 48:02
Kathy Lacey did it. GUFY got 30.
Rob Ryan 48:07
Okay, Gus, he got 30. So, let me add that in. That's great. That's wonderful. Does that look right to you? Dr. Redman?
Dr. Betsy Redmond 48:17
Ah, well, it's, yeah, it's just GUF?
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 48:22
Yes, that's correct.
Rob Ryan 48:25
Good. Oh, yeah.
Dr. Betsy Redmond 48:30
It's right here; oh, it's not even got that right. Get 30. So, and that's getting 30% off, we have a comprehensive test that can allow you to. You can do, like, we have three tests, or we do the complete. So 30% off lets you get a better price for doing all six tests together. Or you can use 30%. Or you, on one trial, can also go ahead and buy two tests at 30% off, explain why this is still working, and then have one pre- and one post.
Rob Ryan 49:09
Okay, so let's return to why we don't make a dime on this. This is a pleasant little surprise we just got from Dr. Redmond. So that's the code for 30% off at your website, which I'll put on the screen at gitlab.com.
Nutrients And Gut Health (49:25)
Rob Ryan 49:25
Let's go back to I'm a person buying Gus he's got. I'm feeding this topper and nutrients, and talk to us just a bit more about what you said about nutrients and how that contributes to gut health.
Dr. Betsy Redmond 49:50
Regarding being new, when I think of nutrients, I think of everything like getting fiber, getting gut bacteria, getting you to know I, polyphenols, getting vitamins and minerals. Your gut is an organ like the rest of your body, and it needs all those things. So you know you want to get it, and if you test it, you know, and you think you're doing everything, and something's elevated, you can address it. You might need more anti-inflammatory medications for a while, and you might need more stuff. You may need to change the dog food, your primary protein source, or add other supplements. But it sometimes takes a while to figure out precisely what the Tweak is. I tested my dog, which I treat very well. And he had elevated beta-glucuronidation. So I thought it wasn't promoted; it was borderline. So I just took that as, hey, I'm going to make sure he doesn't go on any unprotected, sprayed lawn, things like that, not that, be around secondhand smoke. Even in people, smoking has been associated with increased leaky gut. So, if your dog's around secondhand smoke, that could—I mean, I can't find a paper on it. But I'm assuming that it would work the same way. But so I did things to increase gut bacteria. So, I got them a bit of probiotic to see if that would make a difference. Man, I like probiotics. But you have to get the diet straight. Just supplementing. And when they, the gut, came out to the market, everybody was like, we're just going to take a probiotic, and we'll be fine. We'll take this strain, and everything else will be handled. Probiotics don't take up residence. They're just like, you hired them, they come in, they help out, and then they're gone, they don't stay. So when you stop taking them or giving them to your pet, they're gone. So, getting polyphenols, fibers, and all those things will help build up the bacteria that are innately there.
Rob Ryan 52:15
Wow. So there, they call those Trent transients the probiotics.
Dr. Betsy Redmond 52:21
It's not like they move in and don't set up a household; they stay in the hotel until it's time to check-in. They're going to need a resident card.
Rob Ryan 52:33
Yeah. And the elevated beta-glucuronic days. Okay, that's you. Why wouldn't you want yours? I wouldn't want my dog ever on a sprayed lawn. But why if there's an elevated beta-glucuronic day? Why would you keep your pets more susceptible to bringing and absorbing those toxins?
Dr. Betsy Redmond 52:59
If beta glucuronidation says hi, it tells me the gut bacteria is off. Still, as I said, one of the functions of beta glucuronidation is to grab things that have gone through glucuronidation or have been arrested, are in handcuffs, and are getting thrown out. So, it likes to grab the handcuffs or the glucuronic molecule. And then so that toxins like free to recirculate in people they have researched, like beta glucuronic levels above 8000 have been associated with colon cancer, and that's high. But that makes sense because all these toxins and hormones may be getting re-concentrated. Wow.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 53:46
So, specific bacteria or organisms that actually
Dr. Betsy Redmond 53:52
Yeah, not all of them. There are in my research; I don't think I can name them off the top of my head, but there are. Yeah.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 54:06
There were other ways of reducing them.
Dr. Betsy Redmond 54:09
Sometimes clinicians might try to; you can start by supporting good gut bacteria. If it's high and your concern is high, there may be another balance. Occasionally, some botanicals can help to rebalance the gut.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 54:27
Have you ever looked at specific antibiotics for those bacteria, or are they too broad a spectrum to do that?
Dr. Betsy Redmond 54:36
There might be antibiotics for that, but generally, in my world, I'm not working a lot with the antibiotics. Most are working with botanicals.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 54:46
Well, I just had my very conventional veterinary hat on.
Dr. Betsy Redmond 54:52
Yeah, I mean, you could. I think that, indeed, the problem with that is sometimes it lowers it, but botanicals can reduce it. Good bacteria, too.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 55:01
So that was the problem. So we're looking at other botanicals that can.
Dr. Betsy Redmond 55:07
Yeah, I mean, they can. It's they're not going to be as extreme.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 55:13
So, is it a matter of trying to support better bacteria if you have these overwhelmingly? And do we know how to do that
Dr. Betsy Redmond 55:24
while keeping good bacteria; there's been the 4R or 5R gut protocol in the human world for a long time. And it starts with overall gut bacteria, and it's in the vet world, too. You have a lag time, but you reduce harmful bacteria and rebuild your balance. And it was just accepted like you always did. But now it's like, why do we have to reduce? What if we can build, and they can crowd out? Why not? It's like positive parenting. Just keep being positive. And that might work better than saying how bad things are, like redirecting and being positive.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 56:12
So this is nutrition to build good bacteria? Please give us some direction on that.
Dr. Betsy Redmond 56:20
the same thing that makes good, but gut bacteria, polyphenols, fibers, a variety of that, getting
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 56:30
These bacteria, these glucuronic days, when naughty bacteria—let's say the naughty bacteria result from an inferior diet, and we all know what that is. Well, we do. And the process. Yeah, highly, let's say that. So all the things we know are good: Fresh vegetables, all the excellent stuff rich in college, not too many animal fats, all that sort of thing. Or, let's say a good diet will build up the good bacteria to crowd out the virus. So, it comes down to simplicity.
Dr. Betsy Redmond 57:13
Like many diet studies, whether on pets or people, you're studying their diet and its benefits, but you're also comparing it to the diet they were on before. Like with people, Mediterranean diets are great, but they are much better than processed foods. So, it's you got to see, like, if you're going to give your dog a raw diet, that's good, but it's even better if they were on the cheapest kibble before.
Pet Gut Health: Digestive Wellness Guide (57:52)
Rob Ryan 57:52
yeah. And we're almost into our hour. Still, one of my big questions is whether we're learning more. I was told that after you go through an antibiotic regime, your dog's triple dosage of probiotics is in yourself. Still, that may be the advice now, but that may not be the best thing for you. Because you've got this, you've got space in your gut that the probiotics can take up, that real estate, and the good. The natural rebuilding of your gut may not take hold. Do you have any information about that or know anything about it?
Dr. Betsy Redmond 58:52
I haven't. I've heard the articles on that but have yet to read them. So, okay, yeah. I want to come in correctly. Sure. Yeah, that's fair. Either way, you're going to do something if you've got a healthy gut going into it, and if you're not, the dog has to go on antibiotics for something. Any dog with a healthy stomach going in will rebound better.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 59:23
Well, the point is resources that have been diminished will build up more quickly. As long as the diet is good.
Dr. Betsy Redmond 59:32
right, right. Yeah.
Rob Ryan 59:35
Yeah, man, it's like, an athlete goes through surgery better than somebody who's been sedentary and not healthy, and well, it's just the way it is.
Dr. Betsy Redmond 59:47
Yeah, younger younger people in pets do better.
Rob Ryan 59:51
Yeah, wow. Well, Doctor Reminisce, it has been fascinating, especially to learn about all three of your tests, and thank you for all the nutrition information. That was a big surprise for me. It was about something other than how you see nutrients' role in gut health. Dr. B and I have known and built on that. But it's nice to see scientists who acknowledge that that's rare. Dr. B,
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 1:00:31
almost just not in there in their area of focus or something. I don't know. They have other things. They think differently. But that's true.
Rob Ryan 1:00:42
Yeah, not so it's
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 1:00:44
very refreshing. It even brought it home to me. Just the fact that we have to nourish our digestive system. It wasn't really, and I knew he did. And I've talked a lot about significant bowel health, fiber, and short-chain fatty acids, but it must be nourished to function like the rest of our bodies. I mean, it's so damn obvious.
Dr. Betsy Redmond 1:01:16
Yeah, well, and I think we're only looking at what we can look at, like, those markers that you can identify something, and we generally, like, gut bacteria assessment is what's in the fecal, what's in poop. There's a bunch of bacteria that live in the gut lining, and there's a bunch of bacteria that live in the mucous layer. And so, we have yet to get to those.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 1:01:44
We're just touching the surface of our knowledge, which is potential knowledge. Yeah. And together, it is such a system of cybernetic complexity that we'll probably never figure it out.
Dr. Betsy Redmond 1:02:02
Yeah, it'll be a while.
WHERE TO FIND INNOVATIVE PET LAB (1:02:04)
Rob Ryan 1:02:04
Yeah. Well, this has been wonderful. So. So let's see, Dr. Redman, let's put up your website again. Innovativepetlab.com And your social media is a creative pet lab on Facebook and Instagram. If our innovative pet is on Twitter, it's a pet lab on Twitter. And then, just once again, we'll throw up that code for anybody who wants 30% off. This is going live on Facebook forever. So, we will only be guaranteeing that code for a while. But as long as you guys can keep it up, it's fantastic for our viewers. And is there anything else that any other place we want to you want to point us to or where we can find your answer?
Dr. Betsy Redmond 1:02:52
Those are our big things. Yeah. Find us. And yeah, ask us questions. Great. Super easy.
Rob Ryan 1:03:01
That's great. Well, thank you so much for being with us. This has been great. I'm going to take this with me.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 1:03:07
Thank you, for me, too. It's always a learning process with your brilliant people. So it's lovely to meet you.
Dr. Betsy Redmond 1:03:14
Lovely to meet you. It's great. We'd love to find
Rob Ryan 1:03:17
thanks, everybody, for joining us. We'll let you know if you have questions and think that you, your animals, your dog's gut, and your cats, too. Right.
Dr. Betsy Redmond 1:03:27
Dr. Katz, we do the inflammation, immunity, and leaky gut for caps. We're still working on the digestion and detox.
Rob Ryan 1:03:35
Okay, so if you have questions about your dog or cat's immune health, resilience, digestion, and all of that, go to innovativepetlab.com. And you can speak to them and ask them any questions, but no, look inside what's going on with your animal, and you can bring that to your vet. You can get some further advice on directions to take it. Yep. Great. Well, thanks.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst 1:04:05
Same time.
Dr. Betsy Redmond 1:04:06
Yeah.
Rob Ryan 1:04:08
Yes. Thank you so much for joining us. I appreciate you being with us today. Thanks. It was fun. Thank you. Alright. Thanks for joining us, everybody. Have a great day.